Creating a "luckless" CCG possible?

[CCGer]

A luckless TCG eh? I would say that this is a very interesting concept, even though I know many people had thought of it. I understand that this is probally due to an attempt to reward a more skillfull player rather than a luckier one. I love this ideology and had been trying to do something similar too.   

However, I think there are certain things that you will need to be aware of.

Firstly, I think you should decide what type of skills to you want to test your players. Is it movements? Or fomations? Or combos? Or memorising? Or metagaming? Or what? What skill do you want it to be the most important, the second most important and the least most important. By recognising what skills do you want your game to revolve around, it will then be easier to create game mechanics and of course, ultimately, to answer your doubt wether a luckless TCG is possible or wether will it be accepted in the TCG market.

OK. Now, I have learnt about your idea of deciding a your own starting hand and searching for cards at the start of your turn instead of drawing cards. (Enlighten me if I am wrong) However, I have not read anything about wether your hand will be opened to both players, as in both players can see their opponents hand. If you can't see your opponent's hand, there will still be randomness in your TCG. There will be times where you will find yourself trying to guess what cards your opponent have in their hand to make a more strategic move. This can be very much affected by luck even though it is possible to be make accurate guesses especially if you are a veterian player. Please keep that in mind.

Another thing is that you will most likely not know what cards your opponent has in his deck and this can also be an element of luck. Another words, in your game, knowing what your opponent have in his deck can give you a huge advantage by helping you to plan your moves.

If you make your TCG by following your system, what will happen to deck building? In ordinary TCGs, deck building mostly requires the use of probability, which is a unique part of TCGs. According to your system, probability will play little or no role at all in your game. And since there is no probability involved, it is possible for the player to create a 45 cards deck where there is absolutely no repeated copy of any card, thus creating an extremely versatile deck to face almost all different situations. Do you want this scenario to happen? This is something you need to think about.

By the way, I do not see a good reason to use a 30 card deck. (You said the decks will have 30 to 45 cards, if I remember correctly) I think you got this mechanic mixed up with the other common TCGs. Other TCGs might do this because there are luck factors to consider. In a 30 card deck, you will have better chance of drawing what you need versus a 45 card deck which has more options but more luck dependant. However, your luckless TCG is not the same. I do not see any advantage of having a deck with less than 45 cards. Why limit the amount of threats that you can do when there is no probablity involved in your game? I think you should reconsider this rule.

Another thing you need to realise that, an element of chance is not 100% luck base. A game with some element of chance can also be a highly strategic game. A great player will know how to deal with bad luck and try to make a come back from the dead while a not so good player can only win if everything turns out to be in his or her favour. Of course I know that many of you have issues with mana screw in Magic, but there are many other games out there that has element of chance but does not rely much on topdecks and good draws to win.
I suggest that you check out the Battle Spirits TCG which is published by Bandai. I did talk about it in my "fast game vs slow game" thread. You can go google it, search for the official site to learn more. While I am not sure that you will like the game, but I think you will be amazed by its unique game mechanics and you will definitely learn more about what does it takes to make a TCG that doesn't depend so much on luck.

You did wanted to make sure that luck isn't a necessary aspect of a CCG. I shall then give you my opinions.
Yes, I agree that luck is NOT A MUST in a CCG, in fact in any game out there wheter it is a board game or a video game. However, while element of chance always seem to ruin many games (I see that many of you play MTG a lot and have bad experiance about mana screw) but if you use it wisely, it not only makes the game more fun but also adds a lot of strategic moments in the game as well.
In another words, I am trying to tell you that luck is not a must an a CCG but it should not be taken lightly or looked down upon. Perhaps this is why most TCGs in the market out there contains considerable amount of luck elements. Those TCG designers out there are mostly pro game designers and have good reasons for that.

One last thing is that, if you really want to create a CCG that has not even a single element of chance (0% of luck element), you will still need to review your whole idea and probaly make lots of huge changes. Perhaps it will be better if you just say you want to create a CCG where luck is not so important but skill is.(Maybe a CCG where 80% depends on skills while only 20% on luck or something like that)





I am just trying to share my opinions with you. I do not wish to make you dissapointed or anything. In fact, I also dreamt of creating something similar like what you suggested, but on second thought, things doesn't seem to be that easy. I sincerely hope that my post will help you with your ideas. I am also hoping to get some freedback here. (By the way, I am not an expert or anything, so bare with me if I make mistakes and please kindly point them out)

Lastly, all the best and good luck on your project.

[axman]

I guess "luckless" CCG isn't entirely accurate then.  My idea goes more for 80/20 :p.
To answer your question, you do not see the cards in your opponent's hand.  Each player plays with their hand concealed. 

Also, I did not borrow the "30 card deck" idea from other CCGs.  The main reason for that number is as follows
1) No resource cards.  The "resource" mechanics are built directly into certain units and all buildings; therefore, you do not have to have certain portions of your deck dedicated to "only resource" cards. 
2) Marketing.  The game (in theory) would be sold in packs of 6.   In order to create a deck, all anyone would have to do is purchase five booster packs.   This (in theory) would make the game appear alot cheaper than its competitors; therefore, increasing the demand for the game.  Additionally since each pack contains less cards, it could be sold at a cheaper rate which in turn would increase its demand.  Of course... this is all theoretical.     

[Tokimo]

Hidden information isn't the same thing as luck any more than your opponent in chess making a mistake is luck. The game is deterministic either way. There is a huge piece of probability and psychology here, but there's no luck.

The decks need to be card capped, without deck size minimums (unless you allow discard recycling in which case the decks need to have both a minimum and a maximum). If you allow large decks players will come to play with every non-worthless card in their deck. Kinda cool, but a bit unwieldy for tournament play. You should keep a limit on the number of cards you can have of the same type or you'll eventually see decks that are just lightning bolts and wrath of god in 4:1 ratios. I'd recommend a 0-40 card count for the deck.

Decks are in general going to be built to play control, combo, and aggro all at once. This is because if you build a specialist deck your opponent will swap tactics on you and kick your butt. If the deck max size is small enough people will be forced to specialize a little bit (20 cards or less I'd think).

[axman]

Hidden information isn't the same thing as luck any more than your opponent in chess making a mistake is luck. The game is deterministic either way. There is a huge piece of probability and psychology here, but there's no luck.

The decks need to be card capped, without deck size minimums (unless you allow discard recycling in which case the decks need to have both a minimum and a maximum). If you allow large decks players will come to play with every non-worthless card in their deck. Kinda cool, but a bit unwieldy for tournament play. You should keep a limit on the number of cards you can have of the same type or you'll eventually see decks that are just lightning bolts and wrath of god in 4:1 ratios. I'd recommend a 0-40 card count for the deck.

Decks are in general going to be built to play control, combo, and aggro all at once. This is because if you build a specialist deck your opponent will swap tactics on you and kick your butt. If the deck max size is small enough people will be forced to specialize a little bit (20 cards or less I'd think).

The card cap is 45 cards, with a minimum for 30.  At least thats how it stands now.
Also the game mechanics revolve around more combat than actual "casting" spells.  As such "control" decks, at least in regards to games like magic the gathering, wouldn't exist.  The three primary types of decks would be the following:
1) Aggressive decks.  These decks strive to win the game as quickly as possible.  Usually aggressive decks will utilize extremely fast and versatile units as well as aggressive assault buildings. 

2) Defensive or "turtle" decks.  These decks utilize a strong defense in order to keep their enemy from claiming their territory.  Usually turtle decks will use expensive but strong units and barracks in order to insure that their enemy never outnumbers them.  Due to the expensive nature of this strategy; however, turtle decks are slow to advance into enemy territory. 

3) Midranged deck.  These decks utilize aspects of both aggressive and defensive decks. 

[Tokimo]

30-45 seems reasonable.

Ah. I just assumed you'd see the presence of snipers. I'm not sure what my thoughts are on a game that doesn't see threat removal as part of it's gameplay. Seems in a lot of ways like it might end up playing where each player builds up an aggressive military as fast as they can and then launches an end all raid on the opponent. You might find that luckless and controlless don't go well together.

[sneaselx]

Apparently this is the topic where everyone writes books.

I think that a luckless ccg would be very possible. It wouldn't work with the currently popular Magic model of ccg's, because of the immediacy of play. A game where your starting hand is chosen would have to add in-game limits to prevent immediate interactions, or limit them to simple actions. Magic has many cards that, if gotten out, offer an advantage for a cost. Your entire deck is based on building a machine to generate these cards, and to gain their advantages. In chess, however, each move has an inherent advantage and disadvantage. Exmp. Castling protects your king, but locks him away in the corner, making smothering moves possible.
A luckless CCG would have to either have to have cards "effect neutral", or to have an opportunity cost involved. (Playing card X prevents you from playing card Y, which one do you need most?) The current resource model prevalent in the industry just wouldn't work, because you basically already have your machine made. The player to use their machine first would always win.

[Tokimo]

Lightning Bolt vs Spell Pierce is a compelling early decision. The only thing you would need to do to make Magic work would be to have a three-phase turn: Both players play a land, player 1 goes, player 2 goes.

[aardvark]

Apparently this is the topic where everyone writes books.

Yes and you must have a library card. No? Well, I guess I can make an exception.

Irregardless of everything that's been stated opined and what not I look forward to seeing you put your game and its rules into action. *raises hand* Future playtester right here. *and waves it around like he just don't care*

[axman]

Unfortunate I do not think I can use the lackey CCG system to play test my idea : /
My game calls for a "map" and you play your cards on the map as you would a miniature game.  Unfortunatly the last time I checked lackey didn't really support anything like this. 

[aardvark]

Create a background for the game page. That's what hackers did. Not sure about YuGiOh, I remember the mat that came with but I don't think that I've seen one for lackey. 'Course I haven't tried looking so that could be the problem.

[Zao]

You guys ever played BattleForge? Its a real-time strategy PC game. However, the units, spells and buildings you're using are not "fixed" like in most RTS. Each unit, spell, etc, are summoned with the "cards" you chose to put in your deck before the game started.
To have new cards, you buy boosters (with real money!) or trade them with other players, just like a CCG.

However, once you chose your deck and the game starts, there's no luck at all. Your "hand" contains ALL the cards of your deck, you don't draw anything. It's up to you to use them wisely. And even if you think you've got the best combo ever, you don't know what's in your opponent's deck, and you can have some pretty bad surprises.

This being said, I can perfectly imagine a CCG where there's no luck at all, where cards act as miniatures. And it would be AWESOME.

[aardvark]

That's what I'm talking about.

Sounds interesting. Is it still around? I haven't done many pc games in a while.

[Zao]

It's a recent game, I think it was released last year. They're going to release the 3rd edition soon, so it's still alive. You can download the game and play for free to try it. They give you some crappy starting cards, and you don't stand a chance against other players in PvP, but you still can have fun with friends ; or simply play in PvE games (scenarios versus the AI).

[CCGer]

I have heard of Battle Forge and watch some play on you tube, I have not actually played the game myself. Anyway, while I love battle Forge gameplay up to quite an extend, the thing is that Battle Forge is created as a PC game and is not really practical to do in a real life CCG. Especially if you actually plan to sell it comercially.

In Battle Forge, the game map is very huge if compared to a potential game map in a real life CCG. I think that is why there will still be lots of fun strategies even though the game seem "luckless". However, I think it is going to be very hard to do something like that in a real life CCG. You seldom play CCGs on an extremely huge board or playmat, do you? (At least not me)

I am not too sure about this, but Battle Forge may have terrains and stuff to balance its units. And if you were to try to use terrains in your game, not saying that it is impossible, but I think it will be very troublesome. And since Battle Forge have no terrain cards, (at least that is what I know) the terrains are predetermined when two players choose which map to play. If there are tournament senarios, assumung that no deck change can be made after registering the deck list, a player will have to make sure that his deck is able to function well in all maps. I gthink this can be a good way to balance cards and encourages creative deck building rather than just chunk in all the "good" cards in your deck.

If you like this system, you must make sure that all maps are predetermined and there are nothing or few cards that can change them. However, I released that most CCGs will instead have terrain or field cards to decide the terrain. And obviously, all players will use terrain cards that are to their favour. While I think it is usually fine to be this way, but in a "luckless" CCG, things might work differently. The deck building phase of the game can be ruined due to overly simplified deck building. And of course, please bare in mind that there might be some possibilities where a very skillfull player had finally built his best deck and do not need to purchase cards from new expansion anymore. This is because, I believe that in a luckless CCG, metagaming will play a very small role compared to other CCGs. In other CCGs, a certain deck can be fast or slow, hard hitting or high defence and of course stable or not. While your game might have the fast/slow or aggressive/defencive features, you will not really have stability since it is about probability, card drawing power and your chances to pull out a combo or chances to get screwed. In fact your game may encourage your players to create versatile decks to cope with all situations and therefore once a player had achieved his ideal deck, I think it is likely that there will not be any need to change or tweak his deck anymore.
In most online role playing games, one of the ways to encourage players to buy new expansions is to make new units or abilities stronger. But you normally don't want power creep in your CCG.

So to sum things up, I think a luckless CCG is PERFECTLY POSSIBLE, but there will be lots of changes to be made becaused of its huge differences compared to the other CCGs to balance the gaming environment and also tournament play.
If you are talking about selling it commercially, I think you might have ahard time convincing players out there that your CCG is worth playing and comparable or even better than other ones out there.
And by the way, while a "luckless" CCG is a good idea (even I love it and wanted to do the same for quite some time) I think we should NEVER look down on the element of chance. While it sometimes can make a CCG seems highly luck-based (Not all CCGs are like that), it does give the game some strategic moments (in fact in some games, many) and thrill since you don't know what you will get next turn. It is like you will not know what is about to happen tommorow, right? (Although sometimes you can predict that something is about to happen)


Of course, all these are just my opinions. I see you have started to work on your CCG already and hopefully this long reply of mine can help you a bit.
Lastly, good luck on your work!   

[axman]

thank you for all the responses!
I've posted the rules for my "luckless" ccg (or rather CTG )
let me know what you think.