Theoretical Community CCG Project

[r0cknes]

1. Attributes

Military: Great! Both offense and defense
Diplomacy: This has so many opportunities that it has to stay in. This is what the game is about.
Intrigue: I kind of like the name because it doesn't have to be just espionage, but it could be other cards as well.
Commerce: I think you could get away with including science with this attribute. Science is used to produce military, diplomacy, and intelligence enhancements. It takes money to produce science. A "science card" could require a certain amount of commerce and either military, diplomacy, or commerce to play the card.

Forgive me, but I am not sure what you mean by PSI

Leadership: I don't think this has much place in the game. A good leader would already have a good amount of the other attribute that he specializes in.

2. Playing Cards.

Well, to "pay for a card" you have to tap enough cards to add up the required resources, but you could also include other attribute totals as well. For instance, A structure that has a militery type action applied to the card might require 4 commerce and 2 military to play.

I don't think agendas need to have a cost. The cost will be to complete the agenda before others may. Maybe the agenda cards could only be played during the agenda phase which happens at the end of a turn, that would allow for each player to plan accordingly.

Planets: If we do use planets of some sort, then to play planets out of your hand they do need a cost. Otherwise you will have people filling their decks with the good planets and the other planets will not have a place in the game. Also, while I am here, planets must be able to be tapped. Either to provide resources or even to perform an action on the planet. Well I am thinking the planets could have a different type of cost. Instead of requiring attributes, you could require to tap a certain number of fleets. Ships find the planets after all. Why not keep that view in this game. If we do it this way, playing a planet would have to be done at the right time in the game, plus it will encourage the deck builder to include lesser planets especially for the beginning of the game.

3. Destroying cards

I am kind of lost when I get here. Maybe we could include a HP system on each permanent card. That way they can be destroyed, but it would also hinder the attacker, because his ship would be exhausted for the remainder of the turn.

4. Useless fleets

This is somewhat fixed in my playing of planet cards issue. Also, it is helped by the destroying other cards issue. I don't think they are useless. Remember we can have a large number of these fleets have actions that would do certain things inside the game. For instance add an effect to one of the fleets that reads: When this fleet is exhausted add +1 military to each ship you own. Or : When this fleet is exhausted you may ready another fleet of your choice. Or: When this fleet is exhausted you may ready a planet of the Omega sector. The possibilities are endless. These effects would not happen every time the cards are exhausted or "tapped", but just when they are tapped to use those particular actions. If I use a fleet to "pay" for a planet, then I may not use the action on that fleet. I can only do one or the other. I think fleets have a huge role in this game, it is just not the traditional role, which I love.

[BrotherM]

1.  Military, diplomacy, intrigue, commerce - check.  I didn't catch the intrigue idea before, but yeah I like that a lot for interaction.  Maybe instead of psi, call it "supernatural" or something- representing all the crazy shit that goes on in the depths of space.  A human faction would be at 0 in that, and then scaling up from there.  Or another possibility could be "population."  It would be impacted by planets, and could give bonuses to the other attributes (stronger military, easier to get out fleets, etc) plus a really thematic agenda.

2.  Yes to tapping fleets to pay for planets!  Brilliant thematic solution.   I agree Agenda cards don't need a cost- there is just one per player in play and all that stuff happens in the Agenda phase at the end of the turn.  I don't think we need Action Points other than just the # of cards in hand- the player has control over it that way.

3.  Maybe HP for fleets, stuff on the back row is one-shot kill if attacked.  Maybe if you attack an undefended player, you just get to destroy one back row card?  That # could be increased by cards maybe.  For characters, maybe intrigue cards could be used, ie assassinations.  Hell, strong enough intrigue and maybe you could destroy a planet.

4.  r0cknes idea ^ is a very good solution.  Between tapping to play planets, attacking, and defending attacks, they would not be useless anymore.

[Malagar]

@r0cknes
@BrotherM

Thank you for most valueable input!

1. Attributes
Military, Diplomacy, Intrigue, Commerce, Psionics - thats five, wich satisfies the law of fives. okay so far, we can discuss additional attributes later if we need more or see something fit.

2. Planets and Fleets
Love the idea! So fleets are used to explore planets. Agendas have no cost. Brilliant.

3. yeah we could add HP (maybe called Integrity) to cards. but that is not really necessary: we could assume that all cards have just 1 hp, except when a card has a military attribute rating. then the HP of the card equal the military rating. So a fleet with military 3 is able to sustain 3 damage before destroyed etc.

4. yep, adding the exploration mechanic to fleets solves the problem to certain degree.

ATTENTION: About Resources and Income
A few posts earlier we decided to simplify the income/resource system and i really would like your final thoughts on this because i want to go on with the next rulebook chapters. So please tell me in short if you prefer the new or the old resource system (i prefer the new although its a bit complicated at first sight):

OLD: Tapping resource cards provides you with one or more of five different resources. These resources are equal to the attributes. to play a card you have to pay the necessary resources in quantity and matching type. this equals the mana system of magic: the gathering.

NEW: Tapping resource cards provides you with Solaris (the interstellar currency). To play a card you just have to pay its cost in solaris. But: Cards also feature attributes and to bring a card into play, the resource card wich provides the solaris must also feature the matching attribute icons.

Example: You want to bring a cost 3 enhancement card into play that features both Intrigue and Military attributes. So you have to tap a resource that not only provides at least 3 solaris, but also features both intrigue and military icons. This equals a single-currency system with color-coded cards.

thanks for the input guys, you really take part in shaping this project from A to Z !

PS: i got some ideas for the first faction/nation/alliance/race of the game called "The Omikron Combine":

<start flavor text>an alien society with hyper-advanced technology geared towards optimization and productivity. they maintain a pseudo-religious caste system and worship the "machine god". its a society where all aspects like politics, religion and culture are geared towards productivity. there is no state and there is no church, there are no companies - there is just the combine. they live to serve the combine and dying for it is an even greater honor. hail the machine god!<end flavor text>

i add your suggestions to the rulebook, more later - im really tired today.

[r0cknes]

I am not a fan of the super natural aspect being added into the game. Honestly, I would prefer just a bunch of races just trying to take over the galaxy. I don't feel there is any reason for "magic" in the game. That being said, I am not sure that even the flavor text should even talk about "gods" Good thought other than that though.

[Cyrus]

New resource system is better for sure, easy to understand I think. Gotta have cards that require higher amounts of military and such.

I like how Fleets are coming together, way more for them to do = goodness!

Also, I dig the first race!

[Ascent]

Either no one understood a word I said, or no one saw my last post. It went completely unaddressed, even if to say none of it should be used. If you didn't see it, could you look back?

You all want to know how to deal with fleets, I gave a decent offer.

[r0cknes]

I know I and malagar read your post, but I cannot speak for the others. I know malagar did because he did respond to you. He said he is against extra neutral decks. The way this game is going I tend to agree with him. I am sorry you felt ignored, but rest assured we did read and respond to you post.

[Ascent]

I never mentioned extra decks. I could see someone interpreting YOUR "neutral decks" post as claiming extra decks. My post doesn't mention decks at all, only the cards in them. So, if you read my post and came out with "extra decks", you clearly didn't understand it. MY post addressed Fleets and their use within the game.

[r0cknes]

Ok I am sorry that I misunderstood you. Please share with us your input in such a way that even I could understand. Did you mean that you would play a planet card from your hand and then use your fleets to conquer the planet. I believe the consensus has been that movement around the galaxy as a whole is omnipresent. A ship doesn't have to be "near" a planet to defend it.

I did at one time mention a neutral deck, but I accepted the arguments against it. I now stand of the opinion that they are unessecary to this game. I have been swade by clear argumentation.

[Ascent]

My idea was fairly abstract. There's a big focus on treating Fleets like units, but I'm suggesting using them as a hub of interaction. A means of facilitating the ability to play cards and get effects.

No, I wasn't saying to play planets down and then defend them. The idea of using planets as providers of resource icons was my idea originally, and I'm not changing the idea at all. My idea just focused on the Fleets, not the planets.

[r0cknes]

I guess the part that confused me, and again I am not speaking for anyone else, was when you were talking about board position and ships around planets. It sounded like your opponent was trying to conquer the planet to me.

I am sorry for not mentioning your previous post. I am still not sure I completly understand it, but I do believe we are now using fleets more like a "hub" of interaction as you suggested. I am not sure you have noticed but most of my posts end with a very concrete example of my thoughts. I do that because I don't think abstractly very well.

[Ascent]

My problem is that I'm seeing suggestions of "tapping" and "HP", which is very clearly thinking of the Fleets as units.

I guess you could break down the mechanics to that of resource, facilitation, effect and result, which is a managerial perspective. A manager, even a General or Admiral, think of their circumstances in terms of these aspects. They want to know what their resources are, how to transform those resources into effects they can use to get a final result. The planets provide the resources, the Fleets provide the facilitation that permit the effects cards to be played, netting you a stronger board position.

Think of it like a machine that provides various flavors for your drink. The containers holding the flavors are the planets, providing the reservoir. The fleet is like the spigot that is hooked to the flavors and you can move it to any place you like. The flavored fluids are like the effects pouring into the cup. The cup being your current board position.

Now to change up the analogy, by being a spigot, the Fleet is acting as a "hub", receiving and shipping out. This doesn't mean it needs to actually physically receive any cards (effects), but it is facilitating your ability to play effects of any kind. That is, card effects depend upon the Fleet in order for those cards to be playable and the time of when they can be played, because scheduling is also a part of facilitation.

So now let's say you have the 5 planets I originally proposed in play. 3 belong to you and 2 to your opponent (because he goes first), but now it's your turn, so you move a fleet from one of your planets to your opponent's planet. No actual attack is performed, because the Fleet is not a unit, but is a card facilitating the playing of other card effects. The Fleet says when and what type of cards can be played, based upon its stats. It may even have an effect of its own that does not involve attacking at all, perhaps more like a general location effect in another game. The Fleet's stats permit card effects to be played and define when they can be played and perhaps how many. The cards in turn provide effects that impact your opponent's ability to play cards and receive resources, or may give you boosts of some kind. At some point one player is going to be able to play cards and the other isn't. By some mechanic I haven't defined yet, the winner of that maneuver is determined and gains or maintains control of that location (and the other loses their Fleet if they don't prematurely move their fleet away from that planet). While not attempting to gain control of a planet, players attempt to build up their resources before making another attempt to take a planet. In the meantime, they can trade resources with each other, buy effects, perform embargoes on resources from one planet and strengthen their empire until expansion is required to grow any further or to overcome an embargo, in which they move their fleet in to acquire the planet upon which the embargo is based (since you're trading resources, they're obviously coming from planets under your opponent's control, so an embargo means you're cut off from those resources).

Perhaps the cards played in "peace time" (when a Fleet is not threatening an opponent's planet) would be different than the cards played in "war time" (when a fleet is threatening an opponent's planet). Maybe one card type would remain consistent for both.

By using a back-and-forth style of card play, rather than turn structures, you play off of each other's cards and respond immediately to various actions. Maybe some actions could be free, in that you could play a particular type of card at any time or declare a particular action at any time outside the back-and-forth, perhaps as legal responses (hard-coded in the rules).

Now this is just one idea based upon my original idea. You all wouldn't need to adopt all the other mechanics here in order to use the Fleet as facilitator concept. I just wanted to demonstrate what I meant by it.

[Ascent]

I also mentioned earlier about fleet to fleet comparison. Perhaps the players would compare the stats of their fleets, and wherever a player is deficient, they can't play certain effects, but where they exceed their opponent's comparable number, they can play certain effects pertaining to the stat that they are proficient in.

If you send one of your fleets to one of their planets, perhaps to overturn an embargo, if your opponent doesn't counter by moving their own fleet to it, or moving their own fleet away from it, you gain the planet.

Perhaps you don't even need to move your fleet card to it physically. You could simply use a marker of some kind representing your ship at that planet.

The fleet would only come into play when there is a challenge to the political allegiance of a planet. You don't really own a planet, but they are politically allied to your authority or your opponent's.

[Ascent]

Regarding planets in the way that r0cknes describes them, I don't think people would "choose the best" as if there's only one set that would be good to every faction. It is easy enough to design planets to be better for some factions and not for others, based upon how you define the faction, as well as better for some card types and not for others, and better for some effects than for others.

Flavor-wise, I'm not so sure tapping is the right thing for planets. Fleets, maybe, like turning the spigot, but planets, no. You don't void all your resources for any planet just because you use one of its resources.

I like r0cknes's ideas for fleets. I think if you can reconcile that to what I have here, you could have a very unique card type. Perhaps instead of tapping, the resource differential I mentioned could be used to turn effects on and off in the way r0cknes mentions. This would allow you to have more effects in play and thereby a more complex and strategic game.

[Malagar]

Wow, this thread is ablaze!

@Cyrus

Thats me and Cyrus for the new resource sytem, anyone else? any complains?

@r0cknes

Regarding PSI: Actually its not so important, the game is so grand-scale that a little bit of magic wont change the face of the galaxy at all. But: I thought of PSI (psionics) to be a force that certain characters could use to produce fancy effects, maybe tied to special enhancement cards. it would open up possibilities for weirding, witching, truth-saying, far-seeing, bending time and space, prophecies, rituals and the like. in every major sci-fi franchise - there are also psionics. again, its not ultimatively important to our game - but could be useful. any more thoughts?

@Ascent

Sorry, i did read your post - but just like r0cknes - i had problems understanding everything. you really have a talent to explain theoretical aspects in a way that leaves enough room for own ideas and further discussion. but, english is not my mother language - so sometimes i have to read it twice to comprehend.

i really like some of the aspects there, but you mention "targeting planets" for example, and we decided to remove any targeting, locations and distance from the combat. so this thought is obsolete (although i guess you meant it differently and in a more hypothetical way). also: we decided against starting planets, as your nation card is able to produce resources too. so there wont be many planets in play (maybe 1 or max 2 per player in a long game). we just removed the neccesity to have a "line of 5 planets" by shifting their role from "card attachment hub" to "additional resource provider".

all in all - your idea of the fleet as whole - being some kind of "hub" is brilliant. but i think we are already on the right way: the way fleets are working now is that they are the "arm" of your empire, and you use this arm to perform all the actions that require "phsycial force" may it be offensive or peaceful.

some ideas, like "tacking" effects, card draw capability or general "choice of options" to the fleet size, position and cards therein are really good - but i would rather put things like theese on card texts instead of the basic rules.

to sum it all up - i think we are on the right road to make the fleets more like "hubs" (in our style) and this list of possibities and drawbacks demonstrates it very well (i think):

* Fleets can attack other fleets
* Fleets can explore new planets
* Fleets can capture enemy planets (semi-new idea)
* Fleets can participate in certain Agendas
* Fleets can produce special effects written on the cards

* Without fleets you cannot defend your resources (planets and other permanent cards)
* Without fleets you cannot explore planets
* Without fleets you cannot capture enemy planets
* Without fleets you cannot participate in certain Agendas
* Without fleets you cannot produce special effects

Planets are like the energy and vitamin production facilities in the human body. while the fleet is the arm, that does various actions like grabbing, hitting, pushing, pulling by spending vitamins and energy. the planets define the type of energy, the arm uses that energy to perform certain actions.

* IDEA: we could remove tapping to certain degree. during your "income phase" a player would instead put as many solaris tokens on his planets as their income states. the player can use theese tokens to pay for various cards or "fleet maneuvers". at the end of the turn, the remaining tokens are lost and removed.

* IDEA: fleets also do not tap to certain degree. instead you spend the solaris tokens on planets to "pay" your fleets for performing maneuvers. you pay x solaris to make a fleet card attack, explore a new planet, participate in agendas or produce special effects.

Finally: I really want to stick to that "We are at war" and "We are peaceful" nation-card state thing by tapping. It sounds so good and we could make card that can only be played during "peace" or "war". But, i would say that a player cannot switch back to "peace" so easily.