Kingdom: Path to Glory

[Cyrus]

Official Thread for my ccg in the works (for years now) Kingdom: Path to Glory (working title, but likely to stick).

So far I've made 160 cards for the base set. Once I am at 180 or so I'm going to start seriously looking for playtesters, so if you're interested let me know. I'll have the full rulebook posted in a couple days as well so you can flip through that to see if you're interested.

The game is about 2 sides facing off against each other for hold over the land they battle upon. You'll use units, spells, weapons and strategic planning to carry out the assault against your opponent, all the while protecting your locations from their control.
This game is not the simplest game in the world, and is recommended for people who already play ccgs regularly, although it is not too complex either.

To start off I'll just leave some preview pics.

[Tokimo]

Looks pretty cool. What's your source for art?

[Cyrus]

Looks pretty cool. What's your source for art?

The entire internet
I know it could never be marketed with that art, its just a placeholder really because art helps you recognize what a card is faster than having to even read its name, and if I did ever try to push this to actual retail I'd obviously have to get my own artists anyway.

[Ripplez]

do you have the rulebook available? the game looks nice

[Cyrus]

http://www.anarchycap.com/enkoder/kptg/kptgrulesv3.doc
http://www.anarchycap.com/enkoder/kptg/kptgrulesv3.txt

The text one will be very hard to read, so I hope you have something that can open Word files.
Thanks for the interest though, I need someone to read the rules and have a few cards available to look at and see if it all makes sense, so if you do get a chance to read through it and have the time, please make me a list of things you either don't think are covered well enough or just don't make sense.

[Wisp]

Still looking good Cy, i'm up for playtesting.

[Ripplez]

it looks okay. the manual implies some stuff though -

1)"Reduce your opponent?s Hold by: 2 if you still Control the Location and the Location is not a Kingdom or Besieged Location"

"You Control a Location if you have a Unit at the Location unopposed."

"The 3 Locations you play at the beginning of your game are your Kingdom Locations. Units may be Recruited to these Locations even if you don?t Control them as long as your opponent also does not Control them. Remember, if you lose Control of all three of these and have no other way to Recruit Units (such as Outposts) then you lose the game."

how does this work? the first line seems contradictory to the other rules - if you are trying to control the enemys locations, itd be besieged. if its your own, itll be a kingdom location.

2)"if you lose Control of all three of these and have no other way to Recruit Units (such as Outposts) then you lose the game."

"You Control a Location if you have a Unit at the Location unopposed."

so if i am in three locations with all my units in combat, i lose?

3)i generate Ke solely from my resources. it seems like i can only have one. so crunching the numbers - turn 1,2,3,4,5,6,7... : 3,6,9,12,15,18,21....

so the costs of things i can do must come upto that amount for that turn......

so if i want to play a 5 cost enemy, i can do it at turn 2. but if you can, you can simply play a 3 cost character at turn 1 and attack on..... turn 1 or 2? lets assume 2, turn 1 will prove this point faster.

so turn 1A : you put down a 3 cost character. turn 1B : i do nothing. turn 2A : you attack one of my locations. by  "You Control a Location if you have a Unit at the Location unopposed."
you lose one location right away. turn 2B : i play a 5 cost card. turn 3A : you can play a 3 cost unit and play like you. turn 3B : i cannot take back the location since you can defend any given location with your new unit. unless you cannot move your units to any location when i declare (i didnt understand this part in the rules sorry). so either i can select an empty location which you cant defend and take it for free or you can move your unit and so, keep the locations you have.

so at the start of the game, you have 4 locations and i have two. unless i play a small costing card.

which poses the question, why play big units if i will have more Ke to draw and play units if the big units will come out later and cost me a significant loss in advantage right from the get go?

4) if my deck is going to be a 60 card deck and my ability to play these cards are based on my ability to generate ke, how many cards will i play per turn? and what will these 60 cards be exactly? do you have some idea of how cards are going to be arranged? because each time i fight comes at the cost of playing a card. but as shown above, if i go for fighting as soon as possible, i reap the best benefit. so why would i play weapons if the cost is going to hamper by development ability? and by this token, i would have to have very low transient cards (like spells) because they wont add to my field development

5) by that logic, if i take war damage, why would i discard cards from my hand? i wont know what is on top of my deck so if i take war damage, then i can discard all the dead cards in my hand and then discard the remaining damage from the top of my deck. then i can [draw damage/2] and flesh out my hand to be better/bigger/both than the cards i had initially, allowing me to counterattack better. this makes losing units a tactical decision to support but

6)why kill anything? if you win a battle and did damage, you give the opponent the perfect opportunity to counterattck. but then you and your opponent would just stare and play cards to develop because the first person to attack early would lose initiative but the first person to conclusively attack some time in would destroy the opponents completely

7)but this implies that this would be a solitaire game since the only real action comes at one point in the game where one of us is completely sure of victory, with no real chance of battling in between since, as stated before, if i attack you and i DONT seize that location, you will craft the perfect counterattack. however

since i start with 4 locations and you start with 2, if i play small units and you big, you cannot take this risk as easily as i can since you will lose ALOT more especially if all my force comes to bear on your units in a continuing battle. but

9) this assumes that influence and control dont come into play. assuming your going at the fastest rate (i dont think itd apply but as stated early i dont exctly understand whats going on there) itd take 10 turns for use to swap locations. so in ten turns min wed have to act. will this be a good enoguh balance? will i be unable to kill you in ten turns? im aware that the two extra locations mightnt give as big a buff but

10)assuming my initial premise is false and i misunderstood. defeating you at your unguarded location doesnt result in me taking control of it immediately as my own kingdom location. then if the only buff to doing so is to reduce their control at a faster rate, then wouldnt each unit played slow down the rate by changing the value of control reduced at that location. this sounds like itd drag out each individual game

sorry to make such a big list, these are jst some things that came to mind when i read and reread your manual. sorry

[Cyrus]

Don't be sorry at all, this is exactly the kind of feedback I wanted!
I don't have time to go down the list bit by bit right now, but I probably will tonight, I honestly look forward to fixing up the rulebook and/or clarifying things based on your feedback.

[Cyrus]

it looks okay. the manual implies some stuff though -

1)"Reduce your opponent?s Hold by: 2 if you still Control the Location and the Location is not a Kingdom or Besieged Location"

"You Control a Location if you have a Unit at the Location unopposed."

"The 3 Locations you play at the beginning of your game are your Kingdom Locations. Units may be Recruited to these Locations even if you don?t Control them as long as your opponent also does not Control them. Remember, if you lose Control of all three of these and have no other way to Recruit Units (such as Outposts) then you lose the game."

how does this work? the first line seems contradictory to the other rules - if you are trying to control the enemys locations, itd be besieged. if its your own, itll be a kingdom location.

There are three Location Placeholders between each player's Kingdom Locations that can be Controlled and Influenced, but can never be Kingdom Locations or Besieged Locations unless another card somehow makes that happen.

2)"if you lose Control of all three of these and have no other way to Recruit Units (such as Outposts) then you lose the game."

"You Control a Location if you have a Unit at the Location unopposed."

so if i am in three locations with all my units in combat, i lose?

I need to add another game term it looks like. Maybe Occupy or something, unless I want to make Leaders a more important part of the game. As its sits (in my head at least), you can Recruit Units to Locations that you already have Units at as well. Or I should modify that rule to say "if you lose Control of all three of these, have no other way to Recruit Units (such as Outposts), and there are no Units in your forces, you lose the game."

3)i generate Ke solely from my resources. it seems like i can only have one. so crunching the numbers - turn 1,2,3,4,5,6,7... : 3,6,9,12,15,18,21....

so the costs of things i can do must come upto that amount for that turn......

so if i want to play a 5 cost enemy, i can do it at turn 2. but if you can, you can simply play a 3 cost character at turn 1 and attack on..... turn 1 or 2? lets assume 2, turn 1 will prove this point faster.

so turn 1A : you put down a 3 cost character. turn 1B : i do nothing. turn 2A : you attack one of my locations. by  "You Control a Location if you have a Unit at the Location unopposed."
you lose one location right away. turn 2B : i play a 5 cost card. turn 3A : you can play a 3 cost unit and play like you. turn 3B : i cannot take back the location since you can defend any given location with your new unit. unless you cannot move your units to any location when i declare (i didnt understand this part in the rules sorry). so either i can select an empty location which you cant defend and take it for free or you can move your unit and so, keep the locations you have.

so at the start of the game, you have 4 locations and i have two. unless i play a small costing card.

which poses the question, why play big units if i will have more Ke to draw and play units if the big units will come out later and cost me a significant loss in advantage right from the get go?

First off, you can only play Units to your own Kingdom Locations at the beginning of the game, and most Units, especially bigger ones, can only move one space a turn, meaning at best they will reach your Kingdom Locations (after moving across the 3 Location Placeholders) in 3 or 4 turns, costing 1 Ke for each Move as well.

Also, many Resource cards give more than 1 Ke a turn, and additional Resource cards add to the Ke you generate a turn. I've been working on ramping up the speed of the game (it was playing sort of slowly in the beginning) with this idea. I'm not sure if I have it written in to the newest rules, if I don't that's my mistake.

The little guys and more cards vs big guys and less cards is a good point, but lots of the bigger (or at least more expensive) guys have gametext that cannot be made up for with smaller units and more action cards.

Hopefully this answers that question, as it was a well thought out and complex question. Let me know if you want to discuss this more.

4) if my deck is going to be a 60 card deck and my ability to play these cards are based on my ability to generate ke, how many cards will i play per turn? and what will these 60 cards be exactly? do you have some idea of how cards are going to be arranged? because each time i fight comes at the cost of playing a card. but as shown above, if i go for fighting as soon as possible, i reap the best benefit. so why would i play weapons if the cost is going to hamper by development ability? and by this token, i would have to have very low transient cards (like spells) because they wont add to my field development

Your deck will be mostly Units, most likely, and Actions, Spells, etc to further whichever strategy you are going to use to get your Units on to their Locations and keep them alive as best as possible. Field Development is hugely important to the game as it is a war game, but by that token disrupting your opponent's Field Development from afar is almost as good. You also don't necessarily reap the most benefit from fighting as soon as possible as it costs you more resources to move onto their kingdom then it does to defend your own. Really the game will probably most often boil down to both players trying to slowly creep onto the Location Placeholders (or if they play Locations over them, those Locations) to get the bigger Influence drains, and that's when the battling will occur. You get the lowest benefit from staying on your own places, but it is the cheapest way to do it in terms of resources.
What I like about the design I have so far is that each game will play very much differently based on the play styles and decks of each player. Games could progress without ever having a battle using mostly your own Kingdom Locations for draining Hold from your opponent, but if they start to make a move to Locations that will grant a higher Hold drain, you will have to be able to fight them off or obviously lose the race.

5) by that logic, if i take war damage, why would i discard cards from my hand? i wont know what is on top of my deck so if i take war damage, then i can discard all the dead cards in my hand and then discard the remaining damage from the top of my deck. then i can [draw damage/2] and flesh out my hand to be better/bigger/both than the cards i had initially, allowing me to counterattack better. this makes losing units a tactical decision to support but

6)why kill anything? if you win a battle and did damage, you give the opponent the perfect opportunity to counterattck. but then you and your opponent would just stare and play cards to develop because the first person to attack early would lose initiative but the first person to conclusively attack some time in would destroy the opponents completely

7)but this implies that this would be a solitaire game since the only real action comes at one point in the game where one of us is completely sure of victory, with no real chance of battling in between since, as stated before, if i attack you and i DONT seize that location, you will craft the perfect counterattack. however

since i start with 4 locations and you start with 2, if i play small units and you big, you cannot take this risk as easily as i can since you will lose ALOT more especially if all my force comes to bear on your units in a continuing battle. but

9) this assumes that influence and control dont come into play. assuming your going at the fastest rate (i dont think itd apply but as stated early i dont exctly understand whats going on there) itd take 10 turns for use to swap locations. so in ten turns min wed have to act. will this be a good enoguh balance? will i be unable to kill you in ten turns? im aware that the two extra locations mightnt give as big a buff but

10)assuming my initial premise is false and i misunderstood. defeating you at your unguarded location doesnt result in me taking control of it immediately as my own kingdom location. then if the only buff to doing so is to reduce their control at a faster rate, then wouldnt each unit played slow down the rate by changing the value of control reduced at that location. this sounds like itd drag out each individual game

sorry to make such a big list, these are jst some things that came to mind when i read and reread your manual. sorry

This last chunk I think I'd like to discuss more one-on-one maybe in chat or on AIM or something, especially after you read my other replies to see if that clarifies things a bit. I will admit I'm not sure on the reinforcements idea, but the idea behind that was to not tip the balance in the winning player's favor too much in each consecutive battle win.
I am carefully trying to balance between the need to win battles in order to win and the need to influence more Locations in order to win, as I think it is a truer depiction of a war game than most games out there. Remember also that you can never have more Kingdom Locations than the three you start with, and you cannot battle at unopposed Locations, you simply Influence them to reduce your opponent's Hold on the overall land.
With your help and some playtesting I think we can work out a lot of the kinks. Unfortunately I don't have too much time to finish the first set right now, but working on rules and such I can probably squeeze in more time for.

Thank you SOOOO much for actually reading through the rulebook and coming up with all these questions. It is seriously appreciated.

[Ripplez]

iv read your points, i guess my understanding of how your tcg would play out was wrong. the rulebook doesnt make some stuff clear, like how the movement of units is along a line of locations, rather than on a one-to-all setting :

<--------------------------------- p2
p11 p12 p13 px1 px2 px3 p23 p22 p21
p1--------------------------------->

i thought it was like this :

p11   p21   p31
|     /       /
|   /     /
| /   /
p21      p22   p23

for all three locations for both players :S the usefulness of small to large units as well as the weapons and so on might still need balancing tho as well as game speed.

i wont mind chatting about the game, i love theorygaming

[Elyndil]

Id be interested in playtesting, and might be able to get my gaming group to look into it. let me know.

[aardvark]

Lots o' stuff, oh my.

Reminded me a bit of StarWars the ccg by Decipher with locations and travel based on an ability as well as the destiny skill check. aardvark likes.

I like the balancing you did with the influence mechanic. Though I question being able to lessen his/her hold on your region since it starts off as your land in the first place. Aren't they already your loyal subjects? I suppose I can see where the kingdom might need to be influenced after being besieged or taken over even but outside of that not so much.

Regarding unit placement, do you have (or plan on having) any personas with a [SPY] type keyword? Something that could be recruited in a controlled location where it could not otherwise? That could be another reason that you would need to influence your own kingdom. His spy is over there causing unrest and softening your hold on your own land. I suppose if you were to allow something like that it could simply be filed under [Stealth] but I think the term works better for what I imagine.
Nevermind, I read the effect of [Valor]. Good on you. And shame on me for posting while reading. <_<

Also, I'm not sure that I like the whole paying ke to use your weapons to strike at the enemy. At least not w/o some fluffness to make it stick. Are they mercenaries who will only fight as long as you pay them to? Is it some sort of upkeep reflecting the expenditure of food and other supplies while away from the city? Do tell.

About uniques. I take it that they are key characters in a back story you have? If so (even if not actually), do any of them have shady allegiances? Where, instead of one player canceling the other player's unique card by playing his/her own version it would change sides and join the fight against you.

All in all, this is very well thought out. Hope to see it up for play soon.
Before I forget, kudos on the resource card idea. I think it's great!

[Cyrus]

Man aardvark, I can't believe I didn't see that post til now. Teach me to get busy with other stuff in my life.

The good news, however, that is after one more major rules and card editing (not changing many rules, just making them sound nicer) and perhaps a writing of a beginner's rules guide, this game will be ready for Public Beta Test release. I'm talking to Innuendo about making an MSE to Lackey export file for MSE so that I can not have to retype out 160 cards worth of text, and then the plugin will pretty much be done.
I'm intending it to be completely free forever (unless some company offers me gobs of money for it ) so I don't mind using the "borrowed" art work for now, as I expect it to be pretty low-key in user base for awhile. By showing no ads on my sites and probably not even mentioning donations ever, I'm hoping to avoid as many cease and deceits as possible, haha.

I'm thinking of releasing sets differently than most games too, since nothing is stopping me First I will put out this base set of 160 cards, then a couple (probably 2 or 3) Augmentation Sets of roughly 20 to 30 cards designed specifically to shake up any metagame that might develop, as well as add power to under-used deck types and themes. I think it would be a fun way to add cards to the game without having to always make major releases, and it would be much better on my time constraints. That said, about once a year I will also try to release a 75 to 100 card Expansion Set adding new rules and mechanics to the game. That's just brainstorming though.

So, if you're interested in Public Beta Testing, keep yourself up-to-date with this thread, and be excited for the next couple months

[Cyrus]

UPDATE!!!
70 Units, 45 Actions, 20 Locations, 15 Items, Spells, and Resources EQUALS The 180 Card Base Set of Kingdom: Path to Glory!!!

Rulebook has been gone over many times and I think it is complete, just going to need some people to read through it and point out anything that doesn't make sense so I can fix it up so that people that didn't create the game understand it

So where does that leave us? Waiting to hear back from Innuendo with an export file for mse (many thanks and no rush btw), then one quick export of the JPGs later we shall have a fully working plugin ready for Public Beta Testing!!

I'm going to launch a website over the next week or possibly much sooner with a separate forum for beta testers. Any and all are welcome, and there's no deadline to sign up, join in whenever you feel like it. From there we'll flush out the rules quirks and hopefully nip any overly powerful deck types/cards in the bud, and then, and then... official release (which will be a lot like the beta test, except the texts on the cards will stop changing and I'll be advertising it a lot more)!

As you may be able to tell I'm very excited

[Dragoon]

Great news. Where can I find the rulebook?