Making my system stop cheating! Assistance needed.

[VladShadeu]

So, I wanted to build a card game. However, when I got awhile into it I realized something: This is just Magic with a makeover and some additional concepts stolen from other games. So I want you guys to tell me what you think and give me advice on how to make this less of a ripoff.

The Card:
Essentially, there are six elements, classic Fire-Water-Air-Earth, then Dark-Light (Basically Magic+1) You have sites which are not always quite lands, as they share a lot of similarities with enchantments from Magic but also provide you with a stock to add to your mana resources. Cards have three statistical values, Strike, Block, and Rush. Highest Rush value deals damage first, Strike has to meet or exceed the opposing card's Block to destroy it. Some of these values are also on Spell Cards, meaning sometimes a higher Rush is necessary to counterspell.
Unique to my system:
Avatars. Essentially you begin play with one card out on a seperate part of the field. This card gives additional benefits and restricts what you can and cannot use. Avatar cards are also viable as creatures, meaning they can expand your basic repetoire by providing assistance of their own. Also there is an upgrade system. Whenever a card is released, sometimes one or more upgrade options will be released with it. Upgrades are in a side deck and function like spells that can be played any time their cost can be met, but they usually get exotic costs like forced discards, etc. that means time is key when using them. Types are divided into three distinct groups: Faction, Type, Subtype. Faction occasionally gifts you with more strategical options the more cards you have in play that are members of that faction. Type and Subtype are obviously a lot simpler to grasp.
Card Types:
Creatures: As in Magic.
Avatars: Like creatures in all but the fact they can "tune" cards that your personal Avatar may not have been able to use.
Sites: As "Lands" in Magic.
Upgrades: Placed on a card at any time that the cost is payed.
Enchant: As in Magic.
Spell: As "Sorcery" and "Instant" in Magic

[Cyrus]

First off, what is the purpose of making this game? Are you planning on going all the way and publishing, or just online release for fun, maybe encourage print-to-play tournaments if you get a good following? If the latter, I wouldn't really care too much about its similarities to magic.

Maybe make the win condition and overall battles play out a little differently than magic or something to give it a little more flair. What is the win condition anyway?

Do creatures move around on the sites, or are they just for adding resources like magic?

I'm also not quite sure what the avatars do. Are they like generals in EDH? Can you only have cards of corresponding elements in your deck?

The way you describe upgrades make it sound like it could possibly get out of control. "Exotic" costs are sometimes too easy to play, such as discarding cards, and it would become an almost auto-first turn to upgrade as far as you can, possibly.

Sorry for lots of questions haha. All in all it sounds like a fun magic variant that could be viable as a free online/print-to-play game, I'd even be interested in helping and perhaps linking or hosting on my own site once I get it up and running for my game. Just some thoughts.

[moselekm]

I am not insulting you or belittling your concept.  Just trying to get to the barebones.

It's basically Magic with a makeover, as you said.  And A hero card.  Like WoW.  That is basically your class, which has proficiencies that it can draw from within your deck?

[VladShadeu]

Actually, questions are good, I like questions!

First off, what is the purpose of making this game? Are you planning on going all the way and publishing, or just online release for fun, maybe encourage print-to-play tournaments if you get a good following?

I'm sticking with just making it for Lackey, but I'm still determined to make it my own game, you know?

Maybe make the win condition and overall battles play out a little differently than magic or something to give it a little more flair. What is the win condition anyway?

Win condition is the same, and that's one thing I wanna keep. Reduce life to 0 is such a staple in the TCG world it's almost a must. However, depending on your Avatar you may start with more or less life (within 5 of the base total)

Do creatures move around on the sites, or are they just for adding resources like magic?

Resources. But some cards utilize sites in ways that Magic didn't, plus each one has an enchatment-esque effect

I'm also not quite sure what the avatars do.

They're creatures, basically. They tend to be a teensie bit stronger, though, and they are the only valid cards to set as your "personal" avatar. Everyone outside your personal avatar is essentially just another creature.

Are they like generals in EDH? Can you only have cards of corresponding elements in your deck?

No, but each card has a set of "Tuners" that are one word tags shared by the Power cards. Every Power card needs an Avatar that has at least one of the Tuners of that Power, and if that Power has a special Type that must match as well. Creatures and Avatars alike can't use Powers outside their Tuner set. Say my personal Avatar is a Werewolf with the "Luna, Night, Primal" Tuners (Luna is a Power Type, the other two are basic Tuners). However, I play a Lich Avatar with "Spells, Death, Destruction". I can tune a Luna Power card with the Night Tuner through my personal avatar or a Spell Power card with the Death Tuner through my Lich. Sometimes Tuning a specific card through a specific Creature bolsters the effect as well though, so sometimes your personal Avatar may not be the best thing to Tune it with.

The way you describe upgrades make it sound like it could possibly get out of control. "Exotic" costs are sometimes too easy to play, such as discarding cards, and it would become an almost auto-first turn to upgrade as far as you can, possibly.

You misunderstand. The exotic costs are ANDs, not ORs. And Upgrade cards tend to have the highest standard Energy costs out there, so playing a Creature Energy cost 3 might upgrade at 5 AND force a discard of 2, totalling 8 Energy and two cards out of your hand . Upgrades are supposed to be a big thing, not something you can get out in the first few turns.

Sorry for lots of questions haha. All in all it sounds like a fun magic variant that could be viable as a free online/print-to-play game, I'd even be interested in helping and perhaps linking or hosting on my own site once I get it up and running for my game. Just some thoughts.

Like I said, I love the questions. I'd be glad to have your help, once I get some sample cards thrown together I'll give you a look see so you can throw your own ideas into the mix. Also, since this is meant to be a free online CCG as opposed to a for-profit one, I plan to have three formats: Unlimited, Sublimited, and Limited. Essentially, Limited is the standard format that most tourneys will run in, Sublimited is all that plus user-submitted cards balanced and submitted for approval and some cards that were removed from Limited, and Unlimited is both of those plus some slightly unbalanced user-submissions and the really broken cards removed from Limited. So basically the Limited tourney racket is a good way to keep the community interested and keep up a fair ranking system, where the Sublimited and Unlimited makes casual play get really spicy and allows the community to get even more involved.

I am not insulting you or belittling your concept.  Just trying to get to the barebones.

It's basically Magic with a makeover, as you said.  And a hero card.  Like WoW.  That is basically your class, which has proficiencies that it can draw from within your deck?

Sort of. However, "Proficiencies" suggest something like equip cards. Equipment does exist, but there aren't just small modules that get attached to your Avatar, Upgrades are big time things that take turns worth of resource stockpiling.

[Cyrus]

Thanks for the well thought out reply. I hate when I put time into a response and only get a handful of words in return, haha.
Anyways thanks for clearing up most of my confusions. One thing I'm still a little unsure of: Do you have to Tune spells as you play them, or is it an optional way to power up spells? I'm envisioning spells that read something like this:

Fireball
Deals 2 damage to a target.
Tuned - Undead: Deals 3 damage to a non-undead target. Holy: Deals 3 damage to an undead target. Sorcerer: Deals 2 damage to all creatures.

Is this correct? It would be a sort of cool way to not have to make that many cards, but open up a lot of deck building possibilities, not to mention open up a whole variety of in-game strategy (do I wait for the creature that can tune it to the effect I want, or do I use it now to try and buy some time?)

If that's not how it works... well, I'd be a little sad, haha, but please do explain. Sorry if I seem a little dense or something I just want to make sure I clearly understand how things work.

As for battling, there are little tweaks you could make to shy away from Magic. You could choose targets as you are attacking, so you choose who defends against your attackers, but I've personally never really liked that idea. You could do simultaneous turns, attacking with one creature at a time perhaps? So player A sends a guy over, player B chooses his defense, it resolves. Then player B sends a guy over, player A chooses his defense, resolves, then back to player A. Repeated until both players pass in succession. I really liked how VS used simultaneous turns, and would be more than willing to come up with other ways to make that work too if you were in to the idea.

You could also, if you wanted to up the level of strategy a bit more, have 3 "zones" to play creatures in to. Attack Zone, Cast Zone, and Defend Zone, and you can move them once a turn before the battle step. Only creatures in the Attack Zone can Attack, only creatures in the Defend Zone can defend your Avatar, and only creatures in the Cast Zone can tune spells (this might be taking it a little far, the 2 Zones might be enough).

Again, just some more thoughts, hope you think some of 'em are cool. I'm really not trying to hijack your game either hahaha I just like the idea of doing a simpler game also, since I've been working on a fairly complex one that is close to public beta release, I just need to make sure I'll have enough time to support it.

[VladShadeu]

Thanks for the well thought out reply. I hate when I put time into a response and only get a handful of words in return, haha.
Anyways thanks for clearing up most of my confusions. One thing I'm still a little unsure of: Do you have to Tune spells as you play them, or is it an optional way to power up spells?

The answer to that one is "Both"
Here's a sample:
Flare:
Power-Spell
Element: Fire
Tuners: Forces, Burst
Deal 2 damage directly to target player.
Harmony Tune: If you Tune this spell with both Forces and Burst, it deals 4 damage. If the card attempting to tune this is a Fire type, deal an additional 2 damage to the target player.

So it could deal up to 6 depending on whether or not you use a Fire based strategy. However, your creature card would still need the Spell and either the Forces or Burst tuner, or they couldn't play it. This opens instances where pyromancers can't play Ice spells and necromancers can't heal, which makes it so that each strategy gains a unique feel to it and you have to use lots of different site and Tuner combinations in order to have a suitable repetoire. I also do have some plans to do it like that, where cards can be modified depending on what they are tuned through."Harmony Tune" is sort of rare, however there are certain creatures that do get "Add 1 damage to all effects tuned with X" or "All spells tuned through X that heal damage to a single target may instead effect up to two targets" so both Creature and Power side effect the final outcome of the card. Another sample:
Toxic:
Power-Trick (Tricks are specific to monstrous creatures)
Element: Dark
Tuners: Virus (Virus is the catch-all Tuner for poisons, etc.)
Target monster moves out of the battlefield and is dealt two damage.

Is this correct? It would be a sort of cool way to not have to make that many cards, but open up a lot of deck building possibilities, not to mention open up a whole variety of in-game strategy (do I wait for the creature that can tune it to the effect I want, or do I use it now to try and buy some time?)

Yeah, due to the way I'm doing it the first set is going to need quite a few cards to cover all the strategic implementations I want in. The cards are admittably kind of bad in sheer fields belonging to each card, but I think the layout is pretty easy to get used to. And I personally believe my style opens up even MORE possibilities than yours.

As for battling, there are little tweaks you could make to shy away from Magic. You could choose targets as you are attacking, so you choose who defends against your attackers, but I've personally never really liked that idea. You could do simultaneous turns, attacking with one creature at a time perhaps? So player A sends a guy over, player B chooses his defense, it resolves. Then player B sends a guy over, player A chooses his defense, resolves, then back to player A. Repeated until both players pass in succession. I really liked how VS used simultaneous turns, and would be more than willing to come up with other ways to make that work too if you were in to the idea.

Due to card maintenence (counters, drawing, site management, etc) I don't think I want simultaneous turns. The focus here is in turn-by-turn strategical mayhem, the simultaneous aspect seems like it would make things a bit too action based and confusing, mucking up some of the Tuner tricks.

You could also, if you wanted to up the level of strategy a bit more, have 3 "zones" to play creatures in to. Attack Zone, Cast Zone, and Defend Zone, and you can move them once a turn before the battle step. Only creatures in the Attack Zone can Attack, only creatures in the Defend Zone can defend your Avatar, and only creatures in the Cast Zone can tune spells (this might be taking it a little far, the 2 Zones might be enough).

I REALLY LIKE THIS. So I've decided on 3 zones, Sideline, Offensive, Defensive. All creatures can move freely between them during your turn so long as they aren't tapped. In order to strike direct, defensive zone must be free and clear (so called shots are in). Creatures on the Sideline can still tune spells and activate abilities, they just can't strike direct, making them sort of invincible (but then again, they can't Strike so they are effectively just enchantments, and spells can destroy from any zone)

Again, just some more thoughts, hope you think some of 'em are cool. I'm really not trying to hijack your game either hahaha I just like the idea of doing a simpler game also, since I've been working on a fairly complex one that is close to public beta release, I just need to make sure I'll have enough time to support it.

Thank you Cyrus

[Just Mick]

Did not read everything, but the avatars sound exactly like MTG with Vanguard cards. Just saying.

[Cyrus]

Did not read everything, but the avatars sound exactly like MTG with Vanguard cards. Just saying.

Luckily with the exception of, say, 15 people, no one plays Vanguard, so I don't think that's a huge concern.

Vlad, glad you like the zones idea!
One thing that I think you'll need to be very careful with is the ease of getting creatures in play and getting them to "stick" so to speak. In Magic, almost all creatures are only one card away from certain doom, but at the same time, are not integral to your casting other cards from your hand (usually) so you can just play some more creatures and swing away. In your game, however, they are very important to the rest of your strategy as a whole, so they shouldn't be as easy to take out as in magic. That's really a thought that you don't have to worry about until you're designing actual cards though. Basically, in terms of Magic, I would design straight up destruction spells at more of a 6 cost ability rather than a 2 or 3.
I'm liking where this is going though. Do you have a template made up of the actual card design? I think you can pull the game ever further from looking like a magic variant by using a unique card design that perhaps makes the cards look... busier? Dunno.
Regardless I can't wait for a test plugin, if you need someone for beta testing I'll try to clear some time for it

[VladShadeu]

Did not read everything, but the avatars sound exactly like MTG with Vanguard cards. Just saying.

Luckily with the exception of, say, 15 people, no one plays Vanguard, so I don't think that's a huge concern.

ROFL... xD...

Vlad, glad you like the zones idea!
One thing that I think you'll need to be very careful with is the ease of getting creatures in play and getting them to "stick" so to speak. In Magic, almost all creatures are only one card away from certain doom, but at the same time, are not integral to your casting other cards from your hand (usually) so you can just play some more creatures and swing away. In your game, however, they are very important to the rest of your strategy as a whole, so they shouldn't be as easy to take out as in magic. That's really a thought that you don't have to worry about until you're designing actual cards though. Basically, in terms of Magic, I would design straight up destruction spells at more of a 6 cost ability rather than a 2 or 3.

Luckily, zones fixes part of it. You can just stick your Avatars in the sidelines zone, big creatures in the others, since creatures can't touch them you need spells to destroy them. But yeah your right, purely destructive spells shouldn't run at low cost.

I'm liking where this is going though. Do you have a template made up of the actual card design? I think you can pull the game ever further from looking like a magic variant by using a unique card design that perhaps makes the cards look... busier? Dunno.
Regardless I can't wait for a test plugin, if you need someone for beta testing I'll try to clear some time for it

I have something I was toying with....

(The X's were added to show where the mana costs go)
Yeah, it is kinda... busier... isn't it?

[lucas123]

The fix list for that patch mentioned the fire fix, but it wasn't actually fixed until a later patch.

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[VladShadeu]

I don't understand.

[VladShadeu]

One of the ways I decided to innovate with my game is with the community, and by that, I mean a submission-based fan card database just as play valid as the main sets. There are three varieties, Limited, for those who only want to play sets designed by my team, Sublimited, for those who want to explore the better user play-sets, and Unlimited, sort of an "everything goes" game that serves as a catch-all. Think Vintage.

The first couple Sublimited sets are actually made by me, because here is my mental "what makes Sublimited" clause:

"Whether or not a card is valid to be placed in a Limited set is to be determined by the following: A. The card concept is totally original, not under influence of copyright by a major corporation or group of individuals, and B. Fits within the established canon of the Klarity Universe"


So, part of what makes this great is that players can submit sets for their favorite third-party media, in much the style of a fanfiction or fanart, and since I'm keeping this on Lackey these sets are also LEGAL. So here's a teaser card for one of my top three ideas for an early Sublimited set, Tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas, Sublimited Set 1 Block 1.

EDIT: I'm Locking this topic and starting a new, official project topic. This one was just me asking for assistance and doing anything else with it would seem strange.

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