Community Game: Rules & Mechanics

[aardvark]

Good stuff, GnKoichi. People won't get the whole story with only a skeleton to tell them how the cards work together and such. With that in mind, after card types, put a (concise as possible) summary of how it all works together under Interaction.

I don't care for cards being in a deck whose only purpose is to be collected for a win. That in mind, I'd hafta say that I prefer the blueprints that Ripz mentioned.

I had a direction I was going with that thought but it escaped. (note to self: get new locks for muse's cage)

Also, I may just have to steal borrow your idea sneaselx, k? k.

Overview
Rival spies (spy factions?) attempt to "liberate" top secret blueprints for their shadowy employer.

Card Types
Characters
-Main Character
This is your avatar in the game. A super-spy among spies able to get what you want through any means. Take any normal ally card and add 1 to each attribute (Strength, Technology, Intelligence, Conceal).

-Ally
These are the people that make up your team and/or contacts. They will use their talents to help you achieve your goals. Spys, Politicians, Accountants, Engineers, Scientists, Guards, etc.

Trap
Cards that can be played face-down or face-up to hinder your opponent's progress. Traps can only be tripped by certain actions (event cards, moving to/from a location, attempting to liberate a blueprint)

Location
A card that represents various locations in the world. ie. Points of Light, areas in the PoLs, natural terrain between the PoLs, etc, etc.

-Stronghold
--Main Stronghold
This is your base of operations. It determines your hand limit and how many allys you can support. Your opponent cannot play ally or equipment cards here and can only play traps once they have found it. (If their intelligence is greater than the bases conceal value.) Provide a boost to skills while an Ally is in the same area (PoL) Has a conceal value.

--Satellite Base
Small field bases that allow you to have more personnel. Provide a boost to skills while in the same area (PoL). Has a conceal value, usu. greater than Main Stronghold.

-Secure locations
Document cards are stored at Secure locations (bank vaults, sock under the mattress, etc) and list requirements for the player to fulfill before accessing the document stored within. (Idea for a mobile location, ie. Armored Truck that can move with the documents inside.)

Allegiance
A separate card not in play, rather like a token. It is placed under an ally card and used to show who the character is currently working for. Main Character cards do not need allegiance cards as they can never be turned.

Event
-Active
An ongoing event that affects the game as long as it is in play. (Bribe security guards for a certain building or faction. Make your strongholds more secure. Make secure locations less secure. etc)

-Response
Event cards that can only be played in response to events and/or actions that your opponent has just taken. (Move your character away from a location. Increase stats. etc)

Equipment
Cards that enhance an ally's skill(s) (Str, Int, Tek, Con) or allow them to perform feats that they would normally be unable to do. (ie. allow an accountant to sneak past a guard or trap, ninja accountants!)


Interactions
Strength
Increases amount of equipment an ally can carry. Used against guards at secure locations.

Technology
The level of technology an ally can use and how efficiently. Used to bypass steampunk security measures (alarms) or gain access to steampunk computers(?).

Intelligence
How well a character is at gather data not known to the public. If combined Intel at one location is greater than any character's conceal, those allys are considered to be revealed.

Conceal
The character's ability to hide/blend in; How well a location is hidden from prying eyes. As long as a character's conceal is greater than the opponent's combined Intel at any one location, they cannot be targeted by general events and equipment without first setting it off.


Deck Construction
The 40-50 card deck should consist of at least:
1 stronghold location
5 locations
5 secure locations
10 allys
15 events
15 traps

1 main character (ally of your choice)
1 sideboard of allegiance cards (enough for all ally cards in both decks)

The deck cannot contain more than:
7 stronghold locations
15 locations
10 secure locations
20 allys
30 events
30 traps

There can be no more than 1 of a (*)unique card and no more than 3 of the same card.


Setup
Players must first check that they are playing with decks made up of an equal amount of cards.
Place your stronghold down in front of you and put your MC at that location. This is your starting position.
Shuffle your deck and draw 13 cards. Choose 6 cards to keep and then shuffle the remaining cards back into the deck.
Flip a coin or roll a die to see who goes first. (Depends on the number of players.)


Turn Structure
The first player has no special additions or restrictions.
Each player does the following:
Check the values of each stronghold. Generate that much influence.
Play cards.
Move Ally/Use skill(s)
Check to see if you have successfully infiltrated secure location. (See if you've fulfilled the listed requirements.)
Place any number of cards from your hand into your used pile and draw up to your main stronghold's card limit.
Turn passes to the next player.


Win Condition(s)
First to accumulate 10pts worth is the winner. (Documents are worth various points depending on their rarity.)


Lose Condition(s)
The death of your avatar.

[aardvark]

Also!

We should figure out the general outline by next week Wednesday, k? k

[sneaselx]

Overview:

Each player has a library, a deck, and a set of machines. Documents and False Documents go into your library, and actions, allies, traps and locations go into your deck. Each turn you may draw from either your library or your deck.
Library has 10-15 cards
Deck has 40-60
You may bring as many machines as you want. Machines can be used by either player.


-----------------------------------------
Card Types:

Spy-Same as ally, usually slightly better.

Ally-Generates resources, performs espionage, etc.
Stats:
Conceal-Used to steal things.
Technology-Used as one prereq for machines.
Intellect-Used as prereq for Actions.

Locations-Can hold a certain amount of traps. Also has multiple types that help limit machines. Exmp. Water Purification Plant - (Prereq. - Tap any ally. This machine may only build on a River-type location.) Tap in order to generate 2 water.

Machines-Can be built by having the appropriate document in play. Also usually have prerequisites. Provide permanent effects.

Documents-Name a machine they allow you to build. Only able to use if in play equipped to an ally.

False Documents-Meant to look like documents, they can be equipped to allies as normal, but usually have a negative effect when revealed.

Action- Various effects that you can activate. Usually require tapping an ally or paying resources. Types...
   Raid- Can be used at any time during an attempt to steal a document. Provide stat bonuses or weakenings, or protect from traps.
   Espionage- Used during the Main Period. Usually do things like draw cards, look at other cards, etc.
   Reaction- May be used in response to any other card.

Traps-Added to locations. When an enemy enters, activate them one at a time and apply their effects. All traps have an effect and an avoid prerequisite. If an opposing ally passes the prerequisite, the effect is not applied.

--------------------------------------

Turn:
-Draw
Main Period {
-You may play an ally or location. (At most 5 locations per person, at most one ally per location)
-You may give a document or false document to one of your allies (equip). Also during this turn, instead you may instead use the document to build a machine.
-May also use Espionage actions.
}
-If you have enough info for any of your allies to act on, you may attempt to steal a document. Move your ally to the target location. Your opponent may activate any traps, and you must try to avoid them. If you are still alive, and the your opponent's ally's Secret stat is lower than yours, you may steal the document. Any machine outlined by that document remains. If your stat is lower, you fail the steal. If your opponent's ally is tapped, ignore their stat.
-If you don't have enough info, you may tap your allies in order to use their effect. (Usually to generate info or water.)
-Check if you have at least 3 documents stolen. If so, you win.

-----------------------------------------------

The machines make the documents worth more than just win conditions, as well as providing a way to guess what kind of document it is. (Opponent set out a River location, and then added an ally to it. Then, he played a Doc card onto the ally. There is probably a good chance it is a Water Purification Plant, or something similar.) Guessing the documents beforehand means you can A. Figure out their grand strategy, B. Prioritize which documents to go for(in case you decide you want to be able to build a WPP) C. Plan for a raid, as a WPP would most likely have traps around it that require them to pay water, etc.

False documents also help add guessing and bluffing (If he's not preparing a machine there, it's probably a false document, unless he's just trying to trick me...) as well as providing a drawback if you guess wrong.

The FD and the fact that machines are not destroyed when the plans are gone is to help prevent slippery slope.

Any way to simplify would be great, as it is kind of complicated as it is.

[Ripplez]

overview

symmetric game where people build defensive measures to stop/slow the opponents spies and offensive meausure to take documents from the opponents side, uses two decks

card types

there are two decks. in the clan deck, there are - documents, traps, characters, artifacts, resources. in the spy deck

faction card - represents the faction thats employing/sending the main character out. it has attributes :
resource type
starting resources number
communication
defense
<effect text>

resource type determines what class of starting resources you can put into your clan deck as unlimited
starting resources determines how many starting resources you take out of your clan deck at the start of the game to use as starting resources
communication is your clans starting communication attribute. communication is used to determine whether or not a card can be played or its effect works . it thematicly represents the ability to convey information to and from a particular source
defense - the number of cards from the top of your clan base you are allowed to access in order to oppose your opponents spies run
<effect text> is an effect optionaly placed on the faction

main character - start the game with him. he can either be for defense or offense. he as the following attributes :

life
combat
tinkering
communication
stealth

life - how much damage you can take
combat - determines his damage in battle
tinkering - determines his ability to play items and/or use some of their effects
communication difficulty - every character has this stat. as well. it must be equal to or lower than the communication of the clan for clan effects and clan actions to be allowed
stealth - determines a threshold check for effects to take place/fizzle

documents - you start the game with these in play as well. they lie facedown behind the clan deck. there maybe less than beneficial documents used solely to trick the opponents spies. they have the following attributes :
value points
cost
<effect text>

value points - at the end of a turn, if your document is face-up, you may score that documents value point. if it is facedown, you may remove the document from the game into a scored pile and gain points equal to its value points amount
cost - to flip face up
<effect text> - an effect that takes place. usualy when faceup, not necessarily tho

characters - guards of the clan base. they have the attributes :
life
combat
communication difficulty
presence

life, combat and communication difficulty is the same as for main chars
presence - determines the liklihood of overcoming the stealth attributes of the opponents spies

traps - traps of all sorts that have to be passed in order to get to the documents. they make make a threshold check, a payment check, a type check and so on. they have the attributes :

cost
trap criteria
trap effect

cost - to play. might be free, if so a trigger will usually be needed to play it
trap criteria - the effort needed to pass the trap
trap effect - what happens if you fail. might have a beneficial effect if passed

artifacts - permanents that can be played in front of the clan deck to give benefits. they have attributes :

cost
<effect text>

attributes do the same thing

the spy deck has the following cards in it - allies, items, skills, clan cards

allies - like characters in the clan deck. they have the attributes :

life
combat
tinkering
communication difficulty
stealth

attributes do the same

items - they are items, including equipment, mechas and things. they have the attributes :

cost
tinkering threshold
exclusivity
<effect text>

cost and <effect text> do the same thing
tinkering threshold - the amount of tinkering you minimum to be able to use the item
exclusivity - whether or not you can only have one of this card type

skill cards - gives the main character and/or allies effects and/or boosts or penalties. they are used mostly during the spy phase. they have the following attributes :

cost
<effect text>

attributes do the same thing

clan cards - these represent commands given by the clan to characters, to the opponent, to the game world etc. they are essentialy able to change the game system, adding draw phases or returning cards from battle are a few of the things they are capable of. another way of thinking about them is that they give what is essentialy a game option by the player, as opposed to an option of the character. for example, a skill card might say your characters break away from combat. the clan card might say choose a character card and remove it from combat. one is localised to the character perspective. the other takes more into account. they have attributes :

cost
communication
<effect text>

cost and <effect text> are the same. communication is the value used against which you make the check. it is NOT the same as communication difficulty, its the value you must compare comm. diff. against

deck construction

clan deck must have 50 cards min. upto 4 copies of any card. any amount of starting resources
spy deck must have 40 cards min. upto 3 copies of any card
in addition, one faction card, one main character card and a number of documents such that they have in total 20 points of documents min.

setup

put the spy deck separate from the clan deck. put the main character inf ront of the spy deck. put the faction card in between the clan deck and spy deck. put the documents facedown in one stack behind the clan deck. that is now known as the document stack. you may look at the top five cards of the clan deck and put them back in any order on top. draw 7 cards from the spy deck. you may put those cards under the deck and draw a fresh 7 - mulligan. this can be done only once. the first turn, runs cannot be made

turn structure

the turns are arranged as -

|restore phase - start phase - draw phase  - clan phase1 - P2 Defense Phase/P1 Defense Phase - clan phase2 - P1 Spy Phase/P2 Spy Phase - (Score Phase) - End Phase |

start phase is for triggers. restore phase is for readying every exhausted card thats legal to do so. draw phase draws 1 card from the spy deck. clan phase is for playing clan cards legal to do so here. you must also decide what your next phase will be - Spy or Defense

if you choose defense, your opponents phase immediately after that will be spy phase. similarly, if you choose spy, your opponent will go first with their defense phase. after that group is resolved, you then take the phase you didnt choose. ie p2 defense - p1 spy - p1 defense - p2 spy OR p1 defense - p2 spy - p2 defense - p1 spy

if your last phase was to defend and it was your turn, you have a score phase at the end of your turn before the end phase. ie only p2 defense - p1 spy - p1 defense - p2 spy grants you the score phase

your phases have intrinsic abilities :
1)during your clan phase you may use your clan effect.
2)once per turn, during your main phases (the sets of 2 phases each), you may give a clan command to dismiss an ally from the spy field to come to your clan deck area to help defend or you may send a character from your clan deck to the spy field to help the espionage. attributes that are missing are treated as 0.
3)during your clan phase, you may make a surveillance check. if your stealth is higher than your opponents current outside presence, your opponent must tell you the card types present in the  number of top cards of their clan deck where the number is equal to their current defense value OR during your clan phase, once per turn, you may put the top cards equal to your defense value, at the bottom of your deck. this is a shared opportunity with surveillance - you can do one or the other but not both in the same turn

during your spy phase, you may play the spy field. during your defense phase, you play in the clan deck area. the same resources are used for both

during the spy phase, you make a run on the opponents clan deck. if you pass a presence check by having more stealth than your opponents presence, then you may target a document. your opponent then reveals, one at a time, cards from the top equal to their factions defense value. they pay the cost and thespy party is regarded as approaching that trap. when passed, the spy party continues to the card. once all are passed and no more cards can be revealed, then you reach the document and score it

during the defense phase, you may reveal the top cards equal to your defense value and rearrange those cards in any order. you may then pay the cost of any card in that group to play the card as long as its legal to do so, this is how you play artifacts, characters and so on as permanents. you may also pay the cost and flip your documents faceup, in which case they form a document stack of their own. each faceup document forms its own stack. the defense value works for the whole turn so if it is 3, then you have to defend the main document stack with 3 cards. if you happen to have two stacks, you must defend both with 3 as well. and onwards and upwards

win conditions

you need to score a certain number of points to win. scoring from your documents or scoring by stealing your opponents gives the same amount of value points.
you lose if your spy deck is empty but you must draw because the mission is considered a failure
the game is NOT over when the main character dies. but it will get harder to win

interaction

i explained all the effects and base rules earlier. the way the phases are set is so that if you want to attack, you get the ability to know what your going up against but you cannot change your clan deck with your one free action because you alredy used it on the surveillance. you also dont get to score directly, you have to successfully steal. the reason spy work comes during the second set of phases is important is that if your opponent uses their resources to attack you, then the cards they can play for defense suffers. likewise, if you defend later, you get a chance to fix your deck but then your own attacks are weaker. the pay off here is that your scoring directly. the strength in attacking last is that your defense is more mind-gamey. if your opponent fears your offense, they wont press as strong because of your later attack. however they get to see how to defend after youv spent all your resources on your own defense early in the turn. the switch in phases essentialy is there to provide play and counterplay to aggressive and defensive tactics. i dont know if it works out correctly, it seems like it would to me

the reason the clan decks are in the spy deck is so that using a clan card doesnt thin your clan deck excessively making attempts to figure out what cards are in their defense range (the top cards equal in number to their defense value) are worthless

a side effect of the faceup document forming stacks is that for faceup documents more than the base defense value, you have to find a way to increase the defense value or hope your opponent cannot make a run on all of your documents

sorry if its too long. im not good at not rambling. hope it helps. theres alot of repeated text so that might make it look longer than it really is in length. i didnt know how to explain the game without giving full detail of how itd work

[Ripplez]

how do we decide on what were going to use and in what form?

[GnKoichi]

My suggestion would be a small period of review, giving each contributor a chance to refine their pitch.

Basically, everyone involved in the process (including the three pitchers) would review all the pitches (aside from their own). The pitchers should not respond directly to criticisms or questions about their ideas. Instead, they should take any advice they feel is worthwhile and incorporate it into a new pitch. After all the reviews are posted, the pitchers will make their second (improved) pitches. Then we can just vote, since the discussion will essentially have already taken place.

That's just my suggestion. There are certainly pros and cons to doing it this way. I think aardvark should make the final call of how we proceed.

[aardvark]

Looking back at this it feels a little too much like everyone is doing their own project. I know I haven't been on as much I would like to lately but let's see some more banter from the team members, discuss your ideas teamsters. (wicked, shoddy connection and business, argh! )

I suggest that, using the aforementioned overviews, we take what we like and see if we can't find a way to mesh it together; make it work as a whole. I want us to work together as much as possible.

What did YOU like about the overviews? Let your voice be heard. Let's make this thing.

GOAL DATE: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 2200PST

Let's hop to it.

[Ripplez]

im not making a second pitch for my pitch. ill talk about the other two if you want

[aardvark]

Just talk about what ideas you liked that were thrown out. If you don't want to make a second pitch then that's fine. Work with me, ya?

I guess I'll get it started then.
I'm obviously a bit biased towards my own ideas. (I wouldn't put them out there if I didn't like 'em.)
I like sneaselx's use of locations and traps quite a bit, even more than my own if that's possible,  as well as the correlation between documents and machines. Not to forget the false documents and tying in the whole water issue. Well done, boyo.

I also like Ripz' communication idea. Though I don't think that ally cards should be unable to use their effects if the communication value isn't high enough. The middle ground ground here could introduce another tactic, competence, (if communications is used) the higher an ally's competence the more cards they can use. So a small time hood would not have access to the faction's higher tech and would not act without going through the proper channels. Someone on the level of 007, on the other hand, would be able to equip all sorts of super tech and get away with acting on his own most of the time. I guess competence sounds like a combination tinkering threshold and communications actually. Hmmm.

I question moving the face down document into a score pile without some sort of counter mechanic (ie Netrunner), unless that is what you meant. If so, sorries. o_0

I quite like the clan cards too. Not everyone's cup of tea but I wouldn't mind seeing it implemented.

I'm not fond of making the players take certain phases based on the other player's action(s). Would you kindly explain your thoughts behind it.

I do like the clan's abil to recall agents from the field to defend the home base. Spot on!
Also, the way the run is setup is very good. I think it could use some tweaking but as it stands it would be a nice addition.

---

So, based on what's in front of me now. I wouldn't mind seeing a mix of the following:

sneaselx's
locations, traps, documents and false documents, resource system

Ripz'
two deck system, agent recall ability, faction card (tweaked), artifacts

aardvark's
allegiance system (abil to turn an opponent's ally to your side), main character (aka avatar)


THAT is what I would like to see. Once you guys let it be known what YOU want to see we'll put it together and THEN decided on the phases. k? k

[Ripplez]

communication is largely a static value. it fluctuates in cartain conditions and with card effects but there arent that many cards that are like : give +1 comm until end of the turn. communication doesnt completely shut down abilities on cards. its more along the lines of shutting down certain abilities or making them harder without a buff. for example -

an ally has : pay 2 : draw a card.

now when you make the run and your opponent springs their trap, you could pay 2 and draw a card on reaction to the trap, making it much more likely you got what you needed to pass it, can now pay a discard cost you couldnt before and so on, while making your opponent work with false information on what you could and couldnt do. yes, its true they can see the ally and its effect early on but it trivialises the impact of the effect while making it harder for the defender to actually influence it in any way.

however, suppose (and in original concept this was true) communication was lowered when making a run, to symbolise you going into enemy terriotry with nothing but your wits. also suppose the ally had this effect instead : pay 2. comm 3 threshold : draw a card. if normally in this example, comm went down to 1 during a run, you couldnt do this effect and would instead have to do it before the run. you still gain the advantage but its much clearer what your resources are being tapped for, giving the defender more reliable info to work with. but it does allow for deception if you try and raise your comm value / reduce your comm difficulty

another thing is that communication acts like a additional balance value in some cases, an additional stat that determines some of the more powerful effects. an effect like : put an ally into play from your hand for free doesnt need to be unplayable because of too high a mana cost - you can have it need a slightly larger comm value than normal. this enables the cost to be based more on a combo of cards than a direct mana cost. it gives it more flexibility. communication isnt just to balance out characters, it balances out cards and actions that can be taken as a whole while also providing the ability to power up cards. this is why it exists rather than something like competence, its meant to serve as a reward/limiter on more powerful effects, cards and clan cards, to go over it beats the purpose of the stat

clan cards are like sorceries or instants from magic that have a special theme and use the communication ability. theyr playable during the clan phase. their purpose is to augment your clan while skills and traps and things augment the field. thats a slight difference. the reason they deserve a card of their own, besides the theme, is that it slows down things a little. you cannot augment your run with : i do +3 damage to every card and pass every check under 10 whooooo : without your opponent noticing this and having time to react. doesnt detract from the effect but your opponent will now know whats going on and wont just be blindsided. thats what skill cards are for :S the instants are more suited for within phase play as a way to adapt to things. i think for the sake of clarity ill call them clan commands. faction cards are what refer to the faction that hires you and has the states with communication and stuff

the reason facedown cards can be scored is related to why the phases are taken in turns and forced. note that i left out a big point - you must control the document to be scored from the beginning of the turn to when your actually going to score it

your opponent essentialy takes his turns during your turn. your role as the turn player isnt to develop solo during your turn but to decide the order the development takes place. the following is going to be a very theory heavy explanation...... here goes -

justifying scoring as a phase isnt really something i can do. i didnt want to copy netrunner and tbh, i never liked the way you scored agendas in that game. its one of the few mechanics i hated. this explanation will run based on the fact that scoring occurs in a phase. this game cannot use a standard turnbased system where we power up on  our respective turns. given that scoring works as a separate phase,  there must be a way for the opponent to combat your scoring. since  running is the major way to do that, runs have to come before your time  to score the document.

during a single turn, you and your opponent both develop your defense and offense. the turn player decides who goes first in development. now if the spy develops before the defender, then the defender is at a loss. but the defender loses more, since by losing a document to the spy, they also lose the ability to flip it faceup for a benefit. the spy on the other hand has a win-more situation here, since they win by scoring their cards as well when they take the role of defender, they rob the opponent of score and they rob them of the documents ability

a result of all of this is that the defender generally has more to lose if the run is successful than if the run fails, since the spy can just take point as the defender and try to score that way as well (theres a reason why this is not completely true in the final version, its true here because this start of the argument does not use the system iv outlined earlier; mark it as Point 1). as a result, the defender is given the chance to develop before the spy. so regardless of what the first phase the turn player chooses, the defender has to go first. this leaves the combinations -

P1Def-P2Def-P1Spy-P2Spy
P1Def-P2Def-P2Spy-P1Spy
P1Def-P2Spy-P2Def-P1Spy

P2Def-P1Spy-P1Def-P2Spy
P2Def-P1Def-P1Spy-P2Spy
P2Def-P1Def-P2Spy-P1Spy

out of all the combinations where the defense goes first and the opponents spying goes second, four of the six involve the two defense phases to run one after the other. this means that, unless you wish to play artifacts and things, for the most part, relative to the opponent, you burn no mana uptil the spy phase


P1Def-P2Def-P1Spy-P2Spy : can be beaten down if player 1 simply plays with low artifacts. P1 will get to work with all their mana while the opponent has to defend the spy runs, burning their mana on traps. then by the time they get to go, their resources to spend will be depleted by some non-zero amount. this is too powerful and nerfs alot of the strategy. the second player is being penalised simply by going first and all the pressure is being taken on by P2 since they have to balance their mana while P1 does this at their own luxury. if P1 wins on his spy phase and defends successfully, hes clearly ahead. if he wins and he loses on his own spy phase, congrats you tied. theres very little in the way of actually losing here for P1

for this reason, P2Def-P1Def-P1Spy-P2Spy is removed from the pool as well, same effect diff iteration

this leaves P1Def-P2Def-P2Spy-P1Spy and P2Def-P1Def-P2Spy-P1Spy. both of these put the punishment on yourselves. the moment you sacrifice development for score, you wind up helplessly behind when your opponent has marshalled ten diff allies and is making a beeline for your clan. you cant return the favour since your behind on spy development, having wasted your mp on defense the first turn and this being exacerbated since your opponent can just pick the other options from now on and keep attacking you, leaving you having to burn mana in order to stay alive or resign to your fate (and lose a document) and try and build up a spy force to take them down

and this is the problem. there is no normal punishment for turtling, you just blow it wide apart with nitroglycerine. because the first two phases involve doing essentially nothing, it has no impact on the rest of the turn. scoring is largely independant

this is why the third set of options -  P1Def-P2Spy-P2Def-P1Spy and P2Def-P1Spy-P1Def-P2Spy were chosen as the only order of phases that could be used. this allowed the ruling that score phases only appear if your last phase was a defense phase be used because the defense phase isnt that far removed from the end of the turn (unlike the first two sets of options, where they mean very little in terms of resource usage since everything can be stored for the spy runs and defending those)

Point 1 - which is where this turns up. P1Def-P2Spy-P2Def-P1Spy lets you see what your opponent will do when they try to make a run on you, lets you defend at your leisure and lets you make a run on them after they have used their mana, letting you know exactly how much mana they have left to play things..... but it doesnt let you SCORE. this phase gives you all the advantages you need for a successful run, balanced by the fact that you have to defend a run and conserve your own mana first so that you can play cards later. you cannot trivially fail a run and take point as defender because scoring is simply not one of the benefits you receive. however lets take a look at hwen you CAN score - P2Def-P1Spy-P1Def-P2Spy. in order to defend properly on your opponent spy phase, you have to conserve mana on your spy phase..... but whats this? this turns into the example above - P1Def-P2Spy-P2Def-P1Spy - but with YOU as P2. and here, your opponent knows exactly what he is up against and is offered the same advantages to your opponent. and this is the tax turtling pays, in order to score, you have to defend at a time when almost all of your resources are known. if you pick to score on turn 1, your opponent will have no clearcut way of destroying you. sure they can pick P2Def-P1Spy-P1Def-P2Spy to try and abuse your lack of spy work now but they also have less strong defense, since they used it to try and fight you before. but if they try to force you to lose more through crushing spywork, using a P1Def-P2Spy-P2Def-P1Spy, you can try and force them to use mana, so their offense isnt as strong when its their turn

basically, the final result of having phases alternate allows the fact that one is defensive and one is offensive to actually affect the game flow. your choices depend on understandign how your options are limited/benefitted by it, it only adds strategy rather than the other two options. and the card choices you make still matter, not making the advantage/disadvantage fixed by the game design alone. it is also why scoring facedown documents isnt as broken. When you score them, you instantly lose the document. but you doing so isn't trivial, the opponent is able to oppse it and it only comes through after facing pressure. tfirst turn player doesn't get a score phase. and it only builds up from turn 2 onwards

that.... is probably the longest and most intense balancing iv done short of the spirits rising balancing. and thats really a close call. if yuo get through all that, have a cookie *gives cookie* but thats why i felt that facedown cards being scored wasnt major, it brings you closer to winning but doing so removes the faceup boon it could give and doesnt really stop your opponent from their development. the key is that you need to score multiple cards to win, not just one or two

[aardvark]

o_0 eep

Good eye for detail on that Ripz. Any thoughts on the what you would like to see in the final mix? Not including phases mind ye'.

[sneaselx]

Ripplez:: I like the idea of attack/counterattack you have going, but is there possibly a way to make it simpler to understand? I think I understand...

Communications is interesting. I think that being able to increase communications should be more common than you say they are.
It especially makes card design more interesting.

I think avatars are pretty much set in stone. Also, most of the ideas seem to be leaning toward dual decks.
Traps acting as encounters around locations/documents seem to also be a general theme.

The allegiance system is also a good idea. Perhaps a way to adjust loyalty that isn't just effects, though? Something built in.
I do not like having to have a separate card to mark it's loyalty. Perhaps just two different color counters? Green for player one, and blue for player two, and +1 green is the same as -1 blue.



My idea about linking machines with documents still needs a lot of work, to prevent the first player to capture a document from receiving a major advantage.

[Ripplez]

tl;dr : the alternatign of defense and attack phases allows for resourcs to be used before and after attacking, making a) resource management and staggering important adn b) allowing a soft counter to turtling/overaggressiveness

communications is meant to be meaningful. the idea of needing to spend mana and cards on levelling up your other cards is meant to be something special. opening a box and finding 41/100 cards increasing your communications value just trivialises the theme and the importance of the value as a balancer and upgrade/diminisher. 8/100 unique would be much closer to what i felt would be a proper representation. remember your not going to have 100 diff cards in your deck. the card designs interesting because you cannot just have 12 different copies of comm raisers in your 40+ card deck

[sneaselx]

I disagree. I think that the limiting factor of communications is too extreme to just have a set value. Since high communications could unlock both low levels and high levels, and low communications can only unlock low levels, there is very little reason to want to do a low-comm deck. The same decks work with low-comm and high-comm, only high-comm has a clear advantage. Even higher other stats would be unable to over weigh it. It would be like having one super creature in magic, where you could either increase that creatures stats by 1, or play a free land. You would always choose the free land, because it gives you more options than stats ever could. However, with a freely variable comm, you could build a deck around other combos that could give you the comm you need.

[aardvark]

GOAL DATE EXTENDED: Saturday, February 27, 2010.

I like the dialogue. Keep it up.