Card counter design question...

[Trevor]

I am redoing how the card counters work. First off, the size of the text label and the size of the drawn token of the counter are now independently controlled. It used to be that you had one preference and it affected both the size of a text counter label and the drawn counters.

I am also going to be drawing the counters with images, and letting plugins use custom images for counters.

What I would like feedback on is the layout of the counters and how they look. There are 2 modes you can view card counters currently: as a text number or as a quantity of circles. As a text number, the plugin maker can specify where this number is drawn on top of the card. When drawing circles, that method becomes infeasible since there is too much to draw and it could not be controlled with any order.

So for drawing counters, I was thinking about making them work like this:

The top row shows the arrangement of 1,2,3, and 4 red counters. (These would be drawn and not text, despite what the image implies.) The placement of the red counters starts at the bottom middle, and they ascend upwards as more are added.

The 2nd row shows what things look like with 2 different counters. The counters are each made as close to the center as possible.

The 3rd row shows this same idea, but with 3 different colors of tokens.

Does anyone have any better ideas for an algorithm for placing tokens?

I am also considering an option to have card numbers be drawn over a counter image, as pictured on the red token in the image at the bottom left. Alternatively, I am considering drawing the number adjacent to a counter image, as in the bottom middle.

I am not sure if I should give people the option of drawing counters 3 different ways: text only, image only, text+one image.

Also, I'm not sure what the default setting should be.

Please give me any input you have on this soon as I am going to be finishing up the coding as soon as I can. If you have other ideas, sending a picture would be nice.

[Jynks]

To be honest the vertical stacking solid colour counters that you have now... well I am, not sure how useful they are. So, imo, I think there is no real reason to include these especially when you have the ability to add custom counters like you are showing in that spider image....

<hang on I think I'll get a coffee b4 I finish this reply>

RIGHT... here we go!

So.. at the moment you have stacking solid colour counters and numbers that can be positioned on the cards... I think this idea you have is great to start using counter images and, imo, means you no longer need the stacking solid colour counters.

One of the neat things about your counters at the moment is that they are generic. As they are simply different colours and the players can use them for what ever they want. I really like this idea. It is like how counter markers kinda work in real life. At the same time I think it would be neat to allow plugin makers to add custom counters of their own, or of what the game came with in some cases.

Here is some mock up examples of custom counters... I made them big so you can shrink them.



Now I think something like this and like the red counter you have in your demo image is a good idea... and here is why...

1) Text is often hard to read when it has artwork behind it. Buy having a counter behind the text we can see the text much clearer. Removing the need for LackeyCCG itself to have to use that double draw method you are currently playing with to make a outline around the text.
2) These counters could be used for anything
3) You can super easy make a bunch of variations for us - (See this PSD image.. simple click on the colour adjustment layer and drag the HUE slider to get more counters)
4) So this is all cool, but the super cool comes as if this is done you can also allow the plugin maker to add custom counters ONTOP of these generic ones. All the technology is there, you just need to allow them to add a new counter but this time let them set there own image for the counter itself.

Bad

1) The counters, as they are images and no longer vectorish w/e you are using now, will have to be size adjusted by the plugin maker to match his cards, and in some cases, his card versions. These images are to big for example. If I make a High, Medium, Low version of the plugin I may need 3 different sizes for the tokens. I am not sure this is a problem, it isn't hard to resize a image to your needs and add it to the hashed download list to make sure the correct size is downloaded for the card size you are using.



This image, the red counter, is what I think it should be... the text ontop of the counter itself. So adding a counter will add the token image with "1" drawn on it... adding more will just increment "1" to a higher number, and when you take them away, for "0" it just removes the counter completely. As I said above this will make the text much easier to read as the text will always have the exact same background colour due to the counter covering the artwork, and if the plugin maker wants to use a custom counter image, they to can control the text colour and the image for the counter itself to make sure that the text is readable.

As for positioning... well, this is a harder thing. The "best" option would obviously be to allow the players to simple drag the counters anywhere they want. Is that possible? If you make the counters get a set position like they do now it may be hard to get all the default counters on the card ... I really think the best option is for the players to position them as they will. So the plugin author sets a default start position but the players can move them if they want.

Another thing that would be awesome, would be a way to have the counters show in the card preview area. Maybe by holding down a modifier key to either turn them off in the preview window or turn them on ... I vote for off, as counter information is more important than card text as you need that info in every game,. but as you get good at a game you learn the cards and do not need the text as much.

All in all I love this addition... many people like the (imo) inferior app OCTGN, as it is "pretty"... counters and custom counter images will go a long way to making lackey more popular I think if we can get it right.

[Trevor]

Those counter images are free to scale. You don't need to change them for different plugin versions. Right now, the "size" of them that is input is the percentage of the card on which they are placed, like 20%.

As for positioning... well, this is a harder thing. The "best" option would obviously be to allow the players to simple drag the counters anywhere they want. Is that possible?

I disagree. Ideally, it would be nice to move counters around, but in practice, I don't think any UI could pull it off. I think counter locations need to be defined either algorithmically, or by the plugin maker in the case of text (or text with a single token image).

[Jynks]

Bad

1) The counters, as they are images and no longer vectorish w/e you are using now, will have to be size adjusted by the plugin maker to match his cards, and in some cases, his card versions. These images are to big for example. If I make a High, Medium, Low version of the plugin I may need 3 different sizes for the tokens. I am not sure this is a problem, it isn't hard to resize a image to your needs and add it to the hashed download list to make sure the correct size is downloaded for the card size you are using.

Those counter images are free to scale. You don't need to change them for different plugin versions. Right now, the "size" of them that is input is the percentage of the card on which they are placed, like 20%.

Awesome.. so that solves that worry.

[Trevor]

Another thing that would be awesome, would be a way to have the counters show in the card preview area. Maybe by holding down a modifier key to either turn them off in the preview window or turn them on ... I vote for off, as counter information is more important than card text as you need that info in every game

That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure if it would be good in practice. I'll have to think if I can do it in an elegant way. People look at the card image area to see the card image. If they want to see tokens, they can see them easily on the card on the table.

[Saethori]

That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure if it would be good in practice. I'll have to think if I can do it in an elegant way. People look at the card image area to see the card image. If they want to see tokens, they can see them easily on the card on the table.

I suggest you make it a checkbox, adjacent to the Sound and Text checkboxes already in place between the card preview and stats windows. This way, players can turn it on if they want it, and also easily toggle it off in case they want to see whatever portion of the card is being obscured by counters.

The value of being able to see the tokens in the card preview isn't to be shrugged off lightly, especially for people like me who have sight issues.

[Trevor]

I will make a preference option to toggle between 2 modes. One is where only the card image is displayed (like it is now). The other will display the tokens and notes on the card EXCEPT for when you mouse over the card in the card viewer area. That will allow people to see the tokens (and notes) but also be able to quickly hide them (in a way quicker than a proper check box as Saethori suggested).

[r0cknes]

Trevor, I like your idea of mouse over cards hides the tokens.

[Jynks]

Trevor, I like your idea of mouse over cards hides the tokens.

assuming you can get your mouse fomr the table to the viewer with out accidental gooing over a diffrent card.

[r0cknes]

Maybe I am just ignorant on this topic, but what is wrong with using tokens for counters? You place your desired token on the card, and place counters on the token. Then the tokens are freely movable.

[Trevor]

Maybe I am just ignorant on this topic, but what is wrong with using tokens for counters? You place your desired token on the card, and place counters on the token. Then the tokens are freely movable.

It seems like it would be easy for the tokens to fall off like that. Also, the log wouldn't clearly show what card you were adding tokens to.

[r0cknes]

Good Point

[Trevor]

I am done with the new token stuff. I will post it soon. There are 3 styles to choose from: Text only, Images only, and Text over image. The latter is the default.

Text only is just the number on the card.

Images only is the counters drawn as they are in the top part of the diagram:

Text over image shows a counter image and on top of it is the quantity of that counter written in text, like the card on the bottom left in the above diagram.

[Jynks]

can you set your own token image?

[Saethori]

can you set your own token image?

From the original post of this thread:

I am also going to be drawing the counters with images, and letting plugins use custom images for counters.

So the images for counters will be set by plugins and exist somewhere within each plugin's folder. If you would like custom counter images on an individual basis, you will of course be able to modify the plugin's images (and keep backups, as updating the plugin will naturally revert to the plugin's 'default').