Idea for non-random card drawing

[Typherion]

This is an idea I had recently based on a discussion a few months ago on this forum.

That discussion was about luck, skill and randomness. I raised the point that a game based on non-random card drawing could remove randomness from the game, leaving the game dependent only on player decisions.

I'm now thinking about how to develop this concept into the framework for a game. The idea is simply this:

• A player draws a card by choosing any card from their deck and adding it to their hand.

This kind of system would likely reward long term planning and thinking ahead. Being able to choose only one card each turn would make it difficult to change your strategy on the fly. Also, the opposing player/s would try to predict which cards you were adding to your hand based on the state of the game and their assessment of your likely strategy.

As for the kind of game this mechanic might work well with, I was thinking something like a card based empire buiding game where it makes sense that you get to choose what happens rather than your hand being randomly drawn.

I'm not sure if this kind of non-random card draw has been done before, but I'd be interested to hear any thoughts.

[AuraDragon]

I actually tried playing Magic the Gathering like that, it wasn't so bad actually in Standard format.

[Trevor]

The main purpose of decks is to provide an element of randomness. I think a game where you could search for any card would lead to predictable games. I get card A, which leads you to getting card B, which leads to me getting C, and so on.

[Typherion]

If a player was playing a solo game then they might play the same way every time. But with two players, the ability to predict your opponent's moves while disguising your own would become important.

Player 1 might choose to get card A, but Player 2 won't know whether Player 1 chose card A, B, or C (etc). Even if Player 1 actually chooses to draw and immediately play card A, Player 2 wouldn't know if card A was chosen this turn or 5 turns ago. And if it was chosen 5 turns ago then what did Player 1 get instead?

Player 2 might even guess correctly that Player 1 chose card A. But then Player 1 has to assess whether Player 2 believed that Player 1 chose card A and then got card X in response, or if Player 2 thought Player 1 got card B and so got card Y in response to that (etc).

The same principles apply to fighting games and empire building games. You think your opponent is going to block so you try to throw them rather than punching. You think your opponent is bringing out catapults to smash your walls so you mobilise some fast cavalry.

It's definitely not how most card games work but I think it has potential to work well for card games where randomness doesn't make sense.

[Dabem]

This is a similar card game.

I think it's a cool idea. You just need to make sure there are no dominant strategies that make the game no fun to play because the person who goes first always wins.

[Easyminded]

I'm always up to play a card game with different rules. This non random drawing system sounds interesting, because the player chooses which cards to draw, it adds a different element of strategy. Instead of having to make up a strategy as you draw the card and relying on luck, you could plan a strategy pre battle. There is still mystery because the other player doesn't know what card you've drawn, like Typherion mentioned.

[CatboySlim]

My biggest concern with this idea is game pacing. It'd suck to sit through 5 minutes turns because my opponent had to choose the best card for the situation out of 40 and then had to find it in his deck. Also having such a big amount of tactical choice is really daunting to new players.

Maybe a secondary mechanic with separate, small deck similar to Extra Decks in Yugioh could work?

[yudencow]

I think you should do this this way. Instead of building a deck, you create 5 decks of 12 cards. You can pick 1 card out of the 12 to draw. If this deck is over, you move to the next one. Each player sets the order of their decks.

[Typherion]

This is a similar card game.

I think it's a cool idea. You just need to make sure there are no dominant strategies that make the game no fun to play because the person who goes first always wins.

I took a look at Purge and it seems quite interesting. The art is amazing but I found the rules a little difficult to understand. I don't think that game uses the hand as a zone at all, so my idea is a bit different. The card choice of players in Purge becomes known immediately, whereas with my idea their decision remains hidden information except where a player draws and plays cards with  an empty hand.

My biggest concern with this idea is game pacing. It'd suck to sit through 5 minutes turns because my opponent had to choose the best card for the situation out of 40 and then had to find it in his deck. Also having such a big amount of tactical choice is really daunting to new players.

Maybe a secondary mechanic with separate, small deck similar to Extra Decks in Yugioh could work?

Hmm interesting point. I think you're right that it would be insanely hard to calculate the best pick out of 40 cards. But if we are drawing cards non-randomly then there isn't really a need for such a large deck - perhaps a 20-30 card deck would work. This makes it a little easier, but I think the best way to reduce analysis paralysis is to have a resource system for playing cards.

Using this approach, sure, you could draw that Archer unit card this turn, but you won't be able to play it for a while because you don't even have your Archery Range in play yet. Maybe you're already running low on Food and Wood and you already chose some Scouts last turn.

Some other restrictions could also help, such as only being able to play 1 Discovery card for each Season of 4 turns. In this case you would have less incentive to consider drawing extra Discovery cards most of the time because other choices will be more relevant.

I think you should do this this way. Instead of building a deck, you create 5 decks of 12 cards. You can pick 1 card out of the 12 to draw. If this deck is over, you move to the next one. Each player sets the order of their decks.

I don't think this would work because if a game lasts 12 turns or less then players only ever see the first deck and all the others are meaningless. Most card games seem to last somewhere between 5 - 15 turns.

[yudencow]

I think you should do this this way. Instead of building a deck, you create 5 decks of 12 cards. You can pick 1 card out of the 12 to draw. If this deck is over, you move to the next one. Each player sets the order of their decks.

I don't think this would work because if a game lasts 12 turns or less then players only ever see the first deck and all the others are meaningless. Most card games seem to last somewhere between 5 - 15 turns.

This is called strategy, to know which cards you'll need in most games. Maybe it is better to have a deck is an opener which you also draw your hand from. And you can pick a deck out of the remaining 4 to be the next one.

[quinflecher]

 

My biggest concern with this idea is game pacing. It'd suck to sit through 5 minutes turns because my opponent had to choose the best card for the situation out of 40 and then had to find it in his deck. Also having such a big amount of tactical choice is really daunting to new players.
Maybe a secondary mechanic with separate, small deck similar to Extra Decks in Yugioh could work?

To pick up the pace for the start of the game players could choose their hand as part of deck construction and could not change it, as for in game, that would be most easily solved by making the game itself simple. For instance using your example Yu-Gi-Oh, because almost all cards are easily played, and the aim is relatively simple destroy your opponents life points. Even a new player can work out which card would help them in a tricky situation given the choice. Never the less a cautious player is going to play slowly choosing their hand or not.

BTW Typherion was it my topic this came from?

[Typherion]

The idea came from thinking about Malagar's Disciple 3 card game and musings about other games such as Warhammer.

One of the main features of using cards to play games is that they can be randomised to ensure a variable play experience. But I still feel that a non-random draw would make sense and play well for certain kinds of card games.

[dboeren]

Magewars works similar to this - your spellbook is your deck, and you choose which cards you want each turn.

Personally, I don't prefer it.  While drawing does have randomness it also adds essential skills that would be lost if you chose your cards.  Adaptation is the biggest.  Also, it lessens the decision of how many copies of a card to put in your deck.  In many games, you would put more copies to find a card faster but this is no longer needed.  The concept of cards that help search or filter a deck is also invalidated.

[Typherion]

Thanks for the heads up about Magewars. It seems like a very solid game and makes me think that non-random drawing really does have a lot of potential for designing fun card games! It's actually encouraged me to try changing my work in progress game Chosen to a non-random draw system.

You raised some interesting points about player skills that I did some thinking about. By "adaptation" I believe you are talking about the ability of players to get the most out of the cards they draw randomly?

I think losing this may be a fair trade-off for gaining the ability to use other skills such as planning out a long term strategy and disguising it or adapting to disruption from the opponent while trying to discern and disrupt their strategy. Hopefully good design would prevent the game from degenerating into a repetitive exchange of generic threats and answers until one player runs out.

However, adaptation might still be required to some extent in situations where you chose to draw X because you thought your opponent was going to play Y. You would be stuck with X in your hand unless you found a good way to use it in the unanticipated game state. Perhaps you could deceive your opponent into actually playing Y at a later time.

I see your point about deckbuilding, but I think the ability to choose when you want a card also has an upside; it removes the frustration players feel when they keep drawing useless cards and get locked out of the game. Choosing cards should mean you stay in the game until the very last moment.

The role of searching cards could probably be partially filled by recursion cards that return your stuff from the discard pile back into your deck so it can be drawn again. Both types would make decks more consistent at the cost of being a bit slower. But I don't think filtering would be missed with a non-random draw system.

Reading a review of a guy who went out an bought Magewars also made me realise something very important. He said playing the game made him feel like he was the mage throwing the spells at his friend. I believe choosing cards may change the feel of the game dramatically.

You're playing 100% against your opponent, trying to outwit them, which can be more immersive than beating or losing to a deck that operates to a large degree as a machine with less scope for the player.