Setup & Counters Issues

[yudencow]

I realized in a game I'm creating there are too many types of counters. Though colored 6-sided dice replacing the usual meaningless tokens are used, there are many types per unit: health, armor, altitude, charge and effect cooldown. The cards move a lot across the arena to perform formations and to complete objectives, and it is getting quite anoying with such a payload (kind of fits the scenario). Is there a better way to keep track of these variables, or is it better to remove some thoug it may injure te overall gameplay? (E.g. altitude and armor can be removed but charge is a key factor in the game).

Also, during setup, the player is required to do a lot of things. He/She needs to pick a hero, build an army deck, build an item deck, pick 3 skill trees and to pick 6 armor parts. The items and armor parts are quarter the size of the other cards. The item cards are put upside down on army cards in play and when attacked can be reveiled to activate is effect. Should I remove the items and armor? They add color, but the items slow down the gameplay and the armor narrows the experience.

Thanks for helping.

[Cyrus]

This might help, despite sounding like a move in the wrong direction...

Depending on how many character dudes with tons of dice on them you need, you could have them be played facedown in front of the player, and when played they are assigned a token (so you'd need more of those). However, you could just move the token around the gameboard, allowing the character card to feel more like character sheet/scorecard than a moving game piece. This way it doesn't really matter how much you are keeping track of on the card, as that is its sole purpose. The Aliens Vs Predator game used this method for moving dudes around a gameboard.

As far as the other stuff, I trust playtesting will show you the way

[Trevor]

I suggest trying to simplify the game design. Keeping track of more than 2 kinds of counters on a card is generally a bad idea. If you really want the concept of altitude in the game, maybe have this determined by where the cards are on the table.

[yudencow]

I can't decide betwenn 2 options:

A: Simplifying the gameplay:
The cards will now have only Health and Charge token dice. Charge will now behave like insanity, when it is depleted the card is severly hamperd for a turn. Every card recover 1 Health and 1 Charge per turn.
During setup, players will only build the Army deck, pick a hero and 3 skill trees (more like skill stacks).
There will be no cooldowns or effects over time.
Pros: simple, clean, faster pace.
Cons: lost a lot of the combo options of the original, feels stale, less counteractions.

B: Card character sheet:
When a crad is played it is place in one of two rows: battlefield and shadows. On the battlefield row they will be summoned as figurines. Altitude is symbolised by thier height above the battlefiled using clear cubes. In shadows, characters can complete other matters such as assissnation and diplomacy missions.
The dice and support quarter-cards are assigned to the card itself.
Pros: exceeding number of options, endless combos, no two games are alike, much further narrative capabalities.
Cons: lots of token dice, long setup, steep learning curve, a lot of time is spent on updating dice on the cards unless computerized.

Should I go for A or B?

Thanks for helping.

[Cyrus]

I'm gonna go ahead and vote for Trevor here also, which puts the total votes at

Option A - 1 Vote
Option B - 1 Vote

My vote is for the more complicated setup, tho I'd still do something else about the altitude. If it is a crucial part of gameplay it will need to be figured out. The clear cubes will tumble, or get knocked over, or what-have-you, I'm damn near sure of it.
That being said, I don't think there is anything wrong with a little complication and set up time, just know your audience. Prepare to market to already-gamer types, and probably as a "boxed" game such as a board game with cards or some sort of evolving card game like Fantasy Flight's LCGs. I don't see this working as a trading card game, but that is hardly an argument against it, because really, what trading card game "works?" Magic? ....kiiiiinda, and NO ONE is going to make the next M:TG at this point, and everyone should give up trying.... /rant

One important thing to look at in your rules and mechanics is if anything is complicated for no reason. If it can be simplified without taking away from an important game element, then it should be simplified. There's never a reason to make something more work than it should be, in gaming or otherwise.

Once you've chosen a path, upload a rule book and I'll find some time to comb through it and make suggestions, or get really hyped on it, probably both.

[yudencow]

Thank you for commenting.

About the altitude, the clear cubes are more like lego bricks, fitting in place and holding on.
The market is in-fact the problem here. The game was meant to be much newbie-friendly welcoming new gamers with ease. but on the other hand, it doesn't mean pro players can't feel competitive.
Marketing as boxes online is probably the wisest. If you want to take down a part of MTG's market share, you need ahook, like Yu-Gi-Oh anime and manga and WoWTCG MMO. In the first case the card game is the center while in the other collectibles.
I will start working on the basic rulesest right away, in a few days it will be ready and it will be posted here. I will specify on both options and maybe somewhere in between awesomeness can be found.

[BrotherM]

The game was meant to be much newbie-friendly welcoming new gamers with ease.

If this is your intention, then I think you have your answer to the question above.  Option A, except probably way more simplified than you listed under Option A.  I'm a pretty experienced gamer, and I think what you have listed under A is more complicated than I would really ever play.

Actually, if you are going to require 2 types of counters per card, I would suggest combining the idea of a character sheet with it still.  Moving cards around with stuff on them is fiddly and ends up in frustration for the players when they fall or get jostled.

I like your idea so far, and I like that you are trying to design something further away from MtG.  But you really have to watch out for complexity that's based on components.  You want the complexity to come from the card interactions.

Good luck!

[yudencow]

The rulebook is still in the making.

BrotherM, thanks for commenting and for breaking that tie.

This sentence you quoted me typing is why I think analogue games are suffering a devestating blow compared to the action-packed video games. It is by the sayings of Will Wright, the Sims developer, that said that the hardcore fans will last much longer but the casual fans will spread your game. There is one major flaw especially in card games, they are too much hardcore. Most of the card games developed their own carny lingo which new players failed to understand which led to frustration and a silent nerd rage. Along with some a bad business model, steep learning curves and generally empty themes without any feeling of persistancy. I played Prototype today. I did not consuming people for survival will feel so shallow. where is the dilemma from one hand or the insanity on the other. Analogue games can do it so much better, and some have (Vampire: The Masquerade).

I do agree that, as I think of it now, choosing the more complex version to play with, was maybe indeed the less wanted option. Though in the rules that are fairly easy the first approach is pretty intimidating. In the other hand, I like it complicated. It stands out. Suddenly, I added logistics, politics, espionage, interplayer sabotage and deals, training, madness, stances, and unique ways to combo. Though stripping them will leave the concepts, the cards or other assets representing these will be gone. 

I think I found the golden mean (and a new aphorism). The game may bring surprises every turn, but it is also encouraging balance. It feels like there are endless possibilities. I am going on a limb here to create what I want even with a few people will get bored or confused (which I hope will be extremly rare).

Hopefully, this or next week the rulebook will be done. Some of the names there are merely random, or fitting for the start. Also don't expect a ready card or artwork in this rulebook, it is just a starting point. I would like for you to tell me what you think should be kept, changed and removed.