Extra Deck

[yudencow]

Hi, I tought of to add an extra deck in my game similar to yugioh's but with several changes.

The "extra cards" (temporary name) will behave in between Xyz monsters and Synchro monsters. Like synchro monsters they will require the right sum of a number to summon a card, but like Xyz monsters it will be without a tuner. Also, instead of numbers it will be the cost of the card (in my game the cost is just a number, not symbols), instead of just omnsters it can be anything (a really strong one time effect, support, equip and so on)! The cards in my game have costs between 0-6 so it will be nice to see what combinations come up.

What do you think?

[DavidChaos]

Something I think I should say about this idea is that you need to watch the power level on this.  Synchros require Tuners because, otherwise, they would be even easier to summon.  And Synchros are very easy to get out already.  I'm not saying it's a bad idea or anything; I'm planning on doing something like it with mine, but you kind of need to watch the power level of these cards compared to how easily they can come out, and what they can trigger.  Extra decks are something that is very, very tricky to get right.

[yudencow]

Do you think yugioh got it right? and why?

[DavidChaos]

I think yugioh made some mistakes and is running damage control.  I think some Synchros, especially early on in the cycle of Synchros, increased the power level and speed of the game to a point where you needed to use Synchros to keep up.  Because you had Blackwings, who could easily swarm the field.  Six Samurai got a free Spell/Trap negation out of their synchro.  Not to mention Dark Strike Fighter and Goyo Guardian, who are banned for a reason.

The reason Xyz have typically less powerful effects with limited uses is because most Xyz, like most Synchros, could use any card combination.  Xyz like the upcoming Evolzaur Laggia (who can detach both materials, which have to be dinos, in order to get a Solemn Judgment effect at Spell Speed 2) and Thunder-End Dragon (Requires 2 lvl 8 Normals, and wipes the field of monsters at the cost of one material.  In other words, 2 Raigekis.) are more powerful due to more specific, and in some cases harder to use, components.

But the short answer?  I think yugioh got it right at first (with fusions), but then got it wrong with some of the first synchros.  They did some damage control, but the impact of synchros was too much to completely put things back the way they were.

[yudencow]

What I deduced from your analysis is that the Extra Deck should be linear (less options) for stronger cards and modular (more options) for weaker cards, and the Extra Deck should not change the power and speed of the theme.

In that note, why did ritual monsters fail? I mean I bearly seen any played and many players don't even use them.

Let's say in a game you can fuse not by an effect, but as a stage in a game for a cost (mana + sacrifising cards).
I feel if I limit the materials to single cards, the game will limit itself to certain decks, but if the limitation would be for tags and subtypes (and maybe sometimes one fo the materials needs to be a specific card) it could build around certain themes. What do you think?

[Cyrus]

Life would make more sense for everybody if you kept all the posts for your game in one thread... where's da mods on this one (stance wise I mean... does it not matter?)

[yudencow]

where's da mods on this one (stance wise I mean... does it not matter?)

Sorry, but I did not understand.

Plus these questions are not just relevant to my game, but to all people designing similar mechanics. I just pick a subject and see what people think, but the idea snowball doesn't seem to work here... We should all pitch ideas about the basics we all preceive as a CCG, and try to bend it, optimize it and even synergize it with other mechanics.

What I ask of you and of the other Lackeysteins is to have a debate around the concept of an Extra Deck. I threw my idea, DavidChaos responded and everyone can pitch in and write thier ideas too. It's a free forum. So Cyrus, What do you think of Extra Decks like in Yugioh or a Plot Deck like in A Game of Thrones LCG?

[DavidChaos]

Ritual monsters didn't fail so much as get pushed to the side for other things.

See, all Ritual monsters require a number of things available to you; a ritual spell, a ritual monster, and the cards in hand to summon the ritual monster (an exception is made for Advanced Ritual Art, but that's a bit different).  I think the main thing is how strict many rituals that can be used are; there are 2 spells that work on a specific attribute, but require exact levels, as opposed to "at least" the right level, making them harder to use.  There's 2 ritual monsters that share the same spell as well, but that spell, again, requires exact tributes.  Advanced Ritual Art is by far the best so far, with being able to summon any ritual monster by sending the exact level of Normal Monsters from the deck; a much easier task than other ritual cards need to accomplish.  In fact, one of the strongest decks was built around a ritual monster, the Herald of Perfection deck.  But Advanced Ritual Art is limited to 1 now, because if its abuse.

In fact, a new archetype focused on ritual monsters, the Gishkis, is soon to hit the United States.  Any Ritual Spell released for them works on all Gishki ritual monsters, and the first one can return to the deck by returning a Gishki ritual monster to the hand.  On top of that, the archetype has ritual searchers that can count as the whole tribute (Dark ritual monsters had this in Ritual Raven, but it didn't search).  Unlike other Ritual searchers, these just get discarded to search; no use of your normal summon.

My point is, Rituals didn't "fail".  They just got overshadowed.

As for what you wanna do with "Extras", I agree that stronger effects should, generally, be more specific in requirements, or at least able to be pulled off in fewer decks.  Black Rose Dragon is a decent example of this, in a way; although it's easy to summon in a lot of decks, if not for the wipe effect, it wouldn't be a great choice outside of Plant decks, due to only being 2400 attack, but being able to use Plants for its other effect.  If they were two different cards, I would've made the wipe card require something specific.  But, then again, there's always a place in any game for splashable control cards.

[yudencow]

Thanks.