I uploaded the entire Doomtown plugin to a file sharing site called myotherdrive.com I don't know if you have to sign up for it but here's where the folder is... http://www.myotherdrive.com/dyn/ls/494.393718.20112009.74425.6a65dy/Doomtown (http://www.myotherdrive.com/dyn/ls/494.393718.20112009.74425.6a65dy/Doomtown)
All you have to do is put those folders and 3 files in a folder called Doomtown and drop it in your plugins folder on Lackey. If it's not working... you can privately e-mail me.
Dosmodious
If anyone knows of a good hosting site, I'm open for suggestions as to where to put the whole Doomtown Plugin.
reply here so we can all benefit from it
Tried to dl the files, but the thing doesn't seem to let me. There is no apparent way to bulk dl the entire plugin and even if I try to do it one file at a time (which is impractical) the downloaded files are corrupted. ???
Well I'm able to transfer the whole plugin folder on AIM, so if you find me on Lackey playing whatever, just message me and I'll just send it straight to you, no worries. Just put it in your plugins folder and you're good to go.
Dosmo
Better still. Why not putting it on the lackey pluginfinder? This way anyone can share and update.
Don't know how. I just have the folder that goes in the plugin folder of Lackey. Unless someone else knows how to do so.
I am a newbie to lackey. Try posting an how-to request on the forum.
Another idea could be tp upload a zip instead of the single files.
Doomtown is now up and available in the updatelist thanks to Trevor.
Enjoy!
It's not there...
I don't see it on the update list, either.
I was able to download the doomtown plug-in.
I don't want to sound ungrateful because it is really cool that someone took the time to create my favorite CCG of all time. I am sure it takes a lot of time and effort to create the plugin.
Is there any way to update the plug-in?
I don't know about all the factions, but I started building Collegium. Prof. Susan Franklin's card shows 0 upkeep. She has +1 production. Exp Peevie's card shows 1 upkeep and he should have 0. (Although Exp Peevie is insane and well worth 1 upkeep).
Also, I would like a tab in deckbuilder for starters. Currently there is only 1 tab that all cards go in. It would be helpful to put the home + starters so you don't have to fish them out before each game.
thanks to all that reply and to the person that created the plug-in.
Jackalope Jay
I still don't see Doomtown in the plugin finder list. Could you post the dl locations you've got listed in your plugin finder so the rest of us can try it?
Edit: Nvm, I see it listed here: http://lackeyccg.com/pluginfinder.txt
Hey guys...I just downloaded Lackey and the plug-in. Works fine as far as I can see, however, I'm having trouble just figuring out how to play anything. YouTube is blocked on this computer and there isn't any tutorial. Anyways, I'd really like to try playing with someone sometime if someone is willing to teach me a bit. I've already got a starter deck ready to go.
Has anyone got this to successfully work?
Quote from: AnarchistsXe on November 11, 2010, 11:52:04 AM
Has anyone got this to successfully work?
Yes, what issue are you having with it?
Just getting the game mechanics going. Getting the draw hands, the play hands, etc. If someone who plays the game would wanna play one against me I'm sure that would help
I see that my reply informing people of the improved plugin for Doomtown on OCTGN (http://octgn.gamersjudgement.com/game.php?id=9) was deleted without any reason or notice by the mods. Am I to assume that such information is forbidden here? For shame.
Perhaps it's akin to saying in a Pepsi forum, "Try new Coke." I'm not saying I'm right, but I understand. Doomtown works perfectly well on Lackey.
I had a huge post explaining the differences between Doomtown on OCTGN and Lackey, and this is why I'm upset that it got deleted without any notice.
Yes, it works fine on Lackey, but there are a lot of errors on the cards and there's no scripting. I've developed a plugin that actually scripts a lot of the menial things in the game, such as keeping track of your influence, GR and Control, or automating upkeep and lowball, or holding actual card memory. I also explained how those who prefer lackey can use my work to imrove the plugin of Lackey. I'm loathe to rewrite all this again after having it deleted.
I also understand that it might not be a good netiquette posting about OCTGN, but I've seen other posts mentioning it here, and these are not exactly competing corporations. There's no money involved. I merely wanted to inform fans here of the alternative and let them choose, and perhaps allow us all to have a few good games.
Its hard for me to comment specifically as I never saw the original post, however I personally feel that Trevor has always been interested in discussing ways to improve upon Lackey as far as the engine and interface is concerned. I dont think he or another mod would delete a post because it mentioned "competition." Without seeing the original posting I cant comment as to any other issues that may or may not have been. If you think you had some constructive opinions on the plugin, perhaps send a PM to the caretaker of the Doomtown plugin. He/she may be a receptive collaborator for your ideas. In general I find the Lackey community to be very interested in the program and the plugins.
If certain functionality is missing in a plugin, let me know and I will support it.
Can you please stop deleting my replies? Jeez.
If you want to see the functionality that is missing from the plugin, you can take a look at the Doomtown plugin for OCTGN. More to the point and as I said in the reply that you deleted: scripting with python. Can you support this?
Quote from: db0 on May 22, 2011, 09:28:31 AM
If you want to see the functionality that is missing from the plugin, you can take a look at the Doomtown plugin for OCTGN. More to the point and as I said in the reply that you deleted: scripting with python. Can you support this?
What specifically can you not do now that is needed to play doomtown? I don't know how to play that game, so please explain relevant game terms.
It's not about "needing" it to play Doomtown, it's about making playing Doomtown as easy as possible.
Can you go through all the cards a player has in the table and count how much of specific values they have (influence, control) and set a players counters to the sum of those values?
Can you place played cards to specific locations on the table according to their type?
Can you reduce a players money according to the cost of a card they just played while at the same time increasing their influence and control counters?
Can you compare poker hand ranks (5 values of 5 different cards) and find which of the players has the best one and by how much hand rank difference?
Can you go through all the cards in the table, count their upkeep and automatically take if from a player's bank?
None of these things are "needed" to play the game. The players may do them themselves manually, but allowing the game engine to do this automatically greatly increases the speed of the game and allows players to concentrate on the fun stuff - Tactics.
Quote from: db0 on May 22, 2011, 10:03:42 AM
It's not about "needing" it to play Doomtown, it's about making playing Doomtown as easy as possible.
Can you go through all the cards a player has in the table and count how much of specific values they have (influence, control) and set a players counters to the sum of those values?
Can you place played cards to specific locations on the table according to their type?
Can you reduce a players money according to the cost of a card they just played while at the same time increasing their influence and control counters?
Can you compare poker hand ranks (5 values of 5 different cards) and find which of the players has the best one and by how much hand rank difference?
Can you go through all the cards in the table, count their upkeep and automatically take if from a player's bank?
None of these things are "needed" to play the game. The players may do them themselves manually, but allowing the game engine to do this automatically greatly increases the speed of the game and allows players to concentrate on the fun stuff - Tactics.
From what I understand, the purpose of Lackey is to allow you to virtually play a CCG, with the computer version being played essentially in the same manner as the real-life game - meaning counting money, power values, levels, etc, have to be tracked manually. There is functionality built into Lackey to handle all of the elements you mentioned. However, it sounds like the issue here is that by using python scripting you can automate all of it, while in Lackey it is manually updated.
db - let me know if i'm off
Trevor - let me know if i'm off
-A
With scripting you can automate the most tedious things and also help the player so that they don't make mistakes and don't miss something. This is especially useful for new players and in my experience quite relaxing for veteran players.
Quote from: db0 on May 22, 2011, 01:57:58 PM
With scripting you can automate the most tedious things and also help the player so that they don't make mistakes and don't miss something. This is especially useful for new players and in my experience quite relaxing for veteran players.
Thats one reason why Glating was so good;didnt have to worry about people cheating and not catching it.
I think this sort of scripting is actually a lot less helpful than it seems as far as playing a game. People get into the mindset of "if you can have a computer do things for you, you should have a computer do things for you".
Consider one specific example of the computer automatically putting a card onto the table at a certain position based on the card's type. You totally don't need a computer to do this, since you can easily drag and drop a card to exactly where you want it, in exactly the state you want it, exactly when you want to. A computer on the other hand, will have to guess using AI. Even if a computer sends the card to an adequate position 95% of the time, the 5% of the time it doesn't can be very annoying. AI will never be able to play exactly as a person would. AI will do things how it thinks it should do them, which may or may not be how you want them done. When you leave things to a computer, it generally reduces your options. For example, as it is now, you can play cards where you want them. You can move things around as the table gets more cluttered. You can zoom out, or in, depending on preference. You can use various table playmats, which may or may not indicate where cards should go (and your playmat may be different than your opponent's). If you were letting a computer play cards for you, it would be a lot less versatile and flexible. You lose more than you gain is what I'm saying.
Also, some would argue that all these sorts of little choices (e.g., about where exactly you play cards) is a part of playing the game, and some people enjoy doing them. Have you ever played the game ProgressQuest? (http://progressquest.com/play/) If you do, I think you'll see exactly the point I'm making.
If people really want scripting, I can add it, but this I think will not make playing games actually better.
Also, automation makes things much more daunting to implement as a plugin maker. Sure, scripting could (and would) be optional, but I think lots of plugin makers would get it in their minds that "because you can do something, you should do something". I have tried really hard to make creating plugins extremely easy. Besides managing one text file (plugininfo.txt), all you pretty much need to do is get card images and card text (in an easy to manage spreadsheet format), and even the latter is mostly optional. And I will be automating the creation of plugininfo.txt as soon as I get the time.
For what it's worth, I agree with Trevor. For the plugin I manage, I could name at least five instances where automation may enhance gameplay - even something as simple as counting a player's power/effective level based upon the cards in play. That being said, I don't think I would actually implement it for 2 reasons:
- 1: My plugin works well now, and I'm not sure the added effort in the automation would bring about a change valuable
enough to offset that effort
- 2: As Trevor already noted, these things are part of the game. Keeping track of stats and moving cards is one way, at
least to me, that players keep each other in check during the game and make sure everything is being played as it
should. I think automation has the potential to be a double-edged sword; it can greatly enhance some aspects while
leaving others open to error and unintentional misuse.
I'm in no way making an argument against adding automation to lackey as much as saying i think its utility will be limited to certain situational elements or aspects.
I wholeheartedly disagree. The point of automation is not to overrule the player but to help them avoid the less interesting parts of play, which are made slower via a computer engine. If a card is not put in the right location, the player can still move it afterwards, but if you can "play" a card and have the game automatically take the cost off the bank, increase any values it provides and put it in an appropriate location, it makes the game faster and avoid mistakes or cheats.
Consider other scenarios, like not being sure what your value totals are. I've implemented a function to recount all your totals, where the game goes through your cards, counts specific values and updates your totals with the sum of those values. Or consider the function where the game draws five cards, bets 1 "coin" from your bank to a common pot, evaluates that poker hand of those cards, reveals it, compares it with the other player's poker hand, determines and announces the winner, who receives the pot. Given that you need to do this every turn, in "manual" play involving typing your rank, squinting to see the other player's hand and so on can take a bit of time, much more than actual IRL gameplay, automating this procedure can quickly go through this task and allow the players to go quickly to the more exciting parts of the gameplay.
This kind of thing saves a lot of time and helps the players avoid mistakes.
The kind of arguments you're making here are indicative of someone who has not seen exactly how scripting can improve gameplay, rather than take it over. I would wholeheartedly suggest that you experience it before you dismiss it. I can give you a sample play where you will see the kind of scripting available and then have an educated opinion if this is detrimental or not.
Finally if a player prefers to do things manually, this is always still an option in a plugin that provides scripting. People can still drag&drop and modify totals manually. But from all the people I've played with, I have seen none that prefer this method.
Quotethe function where the game draws five cards, bets 1 "coin" from your bank to a common pot, evaluates that poker hand of those cards, reveals it, compares it with the other player's poker hand, determines and announces the winner, who receives the pot
That sounds more like Progress Quest to me. It seems like a real killjoy to have a computer be telling you who's poker hand wins. I haven't played this game, but I would imagine that revealing your poker hand, looking at other players' poker hands, and figuring out who wins
is part of the fun. And more to the point, those actions are part of playing the game.
I am all in favor of adding things to the interface that speed up gameplay, but not if it takes away from actually playing the game. There are many shortcuts that let people do things very quickly, and I am sure most people are unaware of most of them. I haven't made a good tutorial, and I think that can lead to people doing things in a suboptimal way.
As a quick example, if you mouse over a player's stat, the down and up arrow keys decrement and increment that stat.
I will add some sorts of scripting though. I'll post more about that later.
Quote from: Trevor on May 23, 2011, 02:10:31 AMIt seems like a real killjoy to have a computer be telling you who's poker hand wins. I haven't played this game, but I would imagine that revealing your poker hand, looking at other players' poker hands, and figuring out who wins is part of the fun. And more to the point, those actions are part of playing the game.
With all due respect but without actually knowing the game and without actually having played the game with and without this automation, you shouldn't make such a declaration. People who know Doomtown will recognise that I'm talking about Lowball and how not-exciting this comparison is, especially when you have to do it every turn.
To explain, Lowball is completely random, there's no decision involved 99% of the time, and you just want to get it through quickly, even in IRL games. There's indeed another comparison (for shootouts) which is indeed more exciting and this is less automated (only the hand ranks are announced for ease of reading and less typing).
I have a IRL friend from my times playing Doomtown with actual cards. He has a similar mentality to you. He sees no reason to use scripts when he can just drag&drop. Fair enough, the game allows him to do so if he wishes to. However even he prefers to use automation in cases like Lowball, Upkeep, or unbooting ("untapping" in MTG terms) all your cards.
There's also another thing to consider, in that automation can help players in ways that tabletop gaming can't. For example, Doomtown has card memory. This means that any permanent changes on a unique card (most of the cards are unique) remains even if the card leaves play and later comes back in. Naturally, most players tend to forget this unless they take care to use a notepad or hack around with proxy cards and markers. I've automated this, so that the game remembers all markers on card when it leaves play and automatically replaces them when it comes back. This takes away unnecessary oversight from the players once more and avoids them making mistakes by forgetting.
I have played with, and without automation, and indeed I have played in Lackey the very first time (well, excluding Gatling Engine of course) and I can honestly say that my eyes started hurting because of how much strain I had to do to see the ranks and make sure my opponent did not do a mistake. Mind you, this was before I created my own plugin. In fact, this was a very large reason why I wanted something scriptable, because I realized just how tiring this is in Doomtown, and I am sure for many other games.
QuoteI will add some sorts of scripting though. I'll post more about that later.
Excellent. At the least, my post here was a cause for a positive result :)
May I suggest you go with python as well? Not only will it mean that people might be able to import scripts from OCTGN with a minimum of rework (MTG on OCTGN is heavily scripted as well for example), but python is very easy for newbies as well, compared to other languages.
I already have a number of functions which one might consider scripting. One example you mentioned, unbooting all cards, has been available for a long time in Lackey.
I suppose I will give plugin makers the option, and I fear some will shoot themselves in the foot with the ability to do so added, but I will still give them the option.
I will take a look at python and consider it as an option.
That's good to hear. As long as you implement more scripting functionality than OCTGN, it's likely that I will port and upgrade the LackeyCCG Doomtown plugin in the same way. Unfortunately the OCTGN development is very slow atm and there's a bunch of bugs and missing features in scripting that I can't work around, and being able to run natively on Macs would help a lot in attracting a number of people I can't currently play with.
If it will help, I will reiterate my offer that you try out the plugin I've created for OCTGN to get some ideas on what can be accomplished through scripting. If you contact me privately I can give you a quick runthrough and explain which parts (not just for scripting) I would really appreciate having available for Lackey. You can even take a look at the python script code directly (http://pastebin.ca/2058635) to see what kind of things one can achieve and how easy it is to write.
I must say that I find it a good sign that you're so active in development of your program, even though I'm concerned of its centralized and closed source nature - primarily because it still remember what happened to the Gatling Engine which was run in a similar fashion.
Regarding "card memory" you mentioned. I believe lackey does exactly that now, or at least it does if you set that as your preference.
Preferences->Gameplay-> Auto-clear cards moved off the table:[√]
If card memory isn't working as you would like it to, let me know and I will reevaluate it. At present, there are cases where things aren't remembered, but as far as you moving a card from the table to the discard pile, and then back again, it should remember the exact state it was before, unless of course you have the above-mentioned preference enabled.
Talk to me online some time via AIM and we can discuss scripting in more detail.
I found this in searching for answers to my own questions. Having read both sides of the argument I don't think it's quite as black and white as either side makes it out to be. The thing is, the ability to script in itself is not evil, nor is it good. It won't render a game boring, make it too impersonal, simplify the game, make it more accessible, or any of those things. What does all that, is the person who writes the script. It's a tool like a hammer. In the hands of a carpenter, you get functional and useful creations. In the hands of a Hell's Angel, you get a an easily concealed and perfectly legal murder weapon.
I would LOVE to see at least simple scripting. Let the plugin creators automate small and repetitive tasks. Cut down on the amount of clicking required to perform in game tasks. When you play a card face down and sideways with real cards, it's a simple action that takes no more effort than playing one face up and tapped. However in Lackey it's a bit more complicated. The extra effort required to do something we take for granted in real life actually detracts from the immersion. You aren't playing a card game, you are playing a computer game about playing card games. But if you go too far the other way and add an "Install ICE on data-fort X" option, you are no longer playing a card game either, you are playing computer adaptation of a card game.
I think what my rambling is trying to say, is that we need to strive for that sweet spot where we feel like we are playing the card game. In order to get there we need the right tools. Scripting is a powerful tool.
Quote from: Carpemortis on May 23, 2011, 01:00:39 PM
I would LOVE to see at least simple scripting. Let the plugin creators automate small and repetitive tasks. Cut down on the amount of clicking required to perform in game tasks. When you play a card face down and sideways with real cards, it's a simple action that takes no more effort than playing one face up and tapped. However in Lackey it's a bit more complicated. The extra effort required to do something we take for granted in real life actually detracts from the immersion.
This is where I would like specifics. I want an example of the sort of thing you are talking about. Since you mention one, I will address it.
In lackey, right now, you can play a card face down and sideways by:
Dragging it from your hand zone to the table zone, and while you are moving it, before you drop it, hold the alt and option key. (One makes it face down, the other makes it tapped.)
There are about 5 other ways to do the same thing, too.
Unless you simply were unware of being able to do that, I don't see how that is any simpler than it could possibly be. It's just as simple as with a real card in my opinion. How that differs from some (in my opinion necessarily clumsy) automation is a ton of overhead with much less control over doing it explicitly yourself.
In an ideal world, how you would you WANT me to handle a card that you want to play face down and sideways?
I'm not opposed to "scripting", and there is already tons of scripting done in lackey.
Here are a few examples of current "scripts:
Shuffling
Discarding or playing a random card.
Moving a card from one zone to another (or to the table)
Rolling various numbers of dice or coins
i was un-aware of that, thank you.
However just to keep the discussion alive, i will explain what I was doing, and what I thought of in order to simplify that (though in this case it is now obsolete). I was right-clicking the card in my hand to select the "TURNOVER" function. Then i right-clicked again, to select the "MAKERIGHT270DEGREES" function, then I dragged the card onto the table. The most basic solution I came up with would be to put the "TURNOVER" and "MAKERIGHT270DEGREES" functions together on a single line to make a single menu option.
another example of this "combined function" style scripting, would be for token management. For example there are numerous cards in Netrunner that function as token "banks" with the tokens being removed from them and added to a player's "bit pool" stat combining a "REMOVECOUNTER" function with a function to modify a stat (in this case i assume those functions do not yet exist), would simplify the management of tokens. Instead of hunting through menus to remove the counters, then manually adding them to the stat, it could be made into a single action. Again this mirrors real life, where you simply move the tokens you want from one pile to another.
liking Doomtown the way i do.. im not worried about the functionality, for me it just would be nice for a High version of this plugin, the Medium is kinda bad..Just sayin