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LackeyCCG Forum => CCG Design Forum => Topic started by: aardvark on February 02, 2010, 11:18:06 PM

Title: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on February 02, 2010, 11:18:06 PM
Alrighty me lads and lassies. The time is come to start some fun!

That aside, this is here to start throwing ideas out. First we'll figure on the victory condition.
The top choices with a whopping 2 votes are: Documents, Tower Building and Triple Win

I'll put it out right now. Tower building doesn't feel espionagey to me and Triple Win is too complicated to KISS so I propose that we go with the Documents. I think it was a good idea in the first place and we can do quite a bit with that without knowing too much on the fluff.

Once that's done we'll be able to deal with the rest of them.
(I separated them into tiers, 1 has the most votes, so on, so forth)

Tier 1 (4 votes)
Ally
Main Character

Tier 2 (3 votes)
Traps

Tier 3 (2 votes)
Locations
Security
Skills
Spywork
Two Decks

Tier 4 votes (1 vote)
Alarms
Drawbacks
Mud Slinging
Ruse
Snoop
Training
Trust Scale

Tier 5 (0 votes)
Clan Card
Gather Favor
Secret

I figure the top 2 tiers will have to go into the game since they were chosen and then the rest we'll use or cut at our discretion. Don't forget, the top 2 are the only ones that must be in the game, after that it's up to us. :)
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 03, 2010, 11:30:22 AM
iv got some ideas. i dont really know how this is going to work out so until someone clarifies the actual process, ill list some of my thoughts on what could be done here. dont take what im putting down as complete ideas, rather each line should be a subpoint on what we could or couldnt do. and then we can discuss how they mesh as a whole or separately.that way if i put an idea and you only like one concept, we can lift that out and work on jus tthat one :)

documents count for docu-points when scored. you score them during a specific phase of your turn. im thinking of turns being big and expansive, where the end of a single turn is like the equivalent of three to four turns of m:tg. you normaly keep them facedown but you can get a minor effect by flipping them faceup. you get a better effect if yous core them facedown. however you can also leave traps facedown that do nothing when scored. youd draw cards from two decks and have two hands. one is just full of the documents, traps and suchlike. the other is to support them so that they remain uncaptured until theyr scored this is mostly asymmetric though

for a symmetric game, my idea is to have a state focussed on the player, alert or not. the decks are similar. document type cards are placed facedown in a back row with other cards also placed around to act as traps. when the opponent tries to access our cards, we gain the alert state and can flip our traps and use their effects to reinforce the position and then battle it out there. iv got more, i just need to understand them mentaly first
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: sneaselx on February 03, 2010, 03:24:43 PM
My stream-of-conciousness.

Espionage-getting information from enemy.
Goal: Get documents.
How? Internal spies, infiltration.
Spies... 3-4 selected cards, with a beneficial ability, may supply conditions to get documents. Must be converted to your cause, or   bribed with money. Money is temporary, Ideals may be converted with propaganda. Uses politicking. May place allies as spy cards as "sleeper cells".
Infiltration...
   Action: Each infil round is a trap by opponent, set up before hand. Must complete objectives during action phase. (exmp. Trap=Blade Pendulums. First, tap 2 resources, pass a skill check, and then reveal any card in your hand. Failure to do these will have consequences such as activating an alarm, dealing damage, or discarding cards.) Perhaps opponent can interfere?
   Abstract: Each infil round consists of flipping your target document. Document has stat thresholds that must be met. Owner of document must activate placed traps to boost thresholds, or weaken your character.

Clandestine
How to make opponent not know that you are performing espionage?
-Several actions laid out beforehand and revealed simultaneously?
-Documents require set ups that can allow you to predict what they are before you capture them?

Covert
More straightforward... Enemy knows that espionage is occurring, but not who or where.
-Simplest... Locations with traps, must choose character/ally to enter. Almost a copy of netrunner, though.
-Documents have 1-4 locations. These may be filled with cards in order to protect them, or provide boosts, etc. Infiltrator must choose a location to go through. Unfortunately, needs many cards for a little bit of action.
-Many more... Losing focus...Too much thinking...

Good to read some of...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clandestine_cell_system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clandestine_cell_system)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage)
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 03, 2010, 04:50:06 PM
"Documents require set ups that can allow you to predict what they are before you capture them?" this is a good system. i was already using it for a similar idea ive got, its just weird seeing it said by someone else

the thing is that the more strictly you try to adhere to espionage the more you whittle away at design space you could use for cards or basicly onyl works with full access to the deck. but then thats the challenge :O anyone can make an idea easy to make :P

i vote we make skill checks non-random. randomness is in the drawing, lets not have it spread too much further
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on February 04, 2010, 08:28:01 PM
Uhm, I take it that you want Documents as the victory condition then?  ???
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: sneaselx on February 04, 2010, 08:46:29 PM
QuoteTower building doesn't feel espionagey to me and Triple Win is too complicated to KISS so I propose that we go with the Documents.

Just going with the flow. But yeah, it seems the best way to go.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 05, 2010, 09:32:45 PM
anyone else have anything they want to share? we wont bite :)
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: GnKoichi on February 07, 2010, 12:21:32 AM
Thank you guys for picking a win condition. The Creative Team will start working from there. I hope you guys can get a little more organized. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish next? Clearly defined goals will really help these early steps.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 07, 2010, 03:29:33 AM
i think we should work out what the shape of the game will be

a) will it be symmetric/asymmetric?
b) how closely will it adhere to flavour? like given the four factions right now, will the document holders be one of the factions (enabling  resource generatign cards based on steam, chemical and electircity) or will it be someone hiring them (making it kinda hard to explain why you play resources if your just hiring help)
c) how big a role will hidden information take? its meant to be there but how much are we askign them to guess? card types? strategies? will failing a guess just outright cost you the game? set you back? increase their developmnt?
d) *insert valid obvios point i coudnt think of*

imo once we know wat the game will look liek, then we can actually come up with rules and stuff, borowing ideas and mechanics from the fluff (for example sparkies could cause overdrive : comes into play with 2 counters. remove a counter start of the turn, you have X : Y while youv got the counter). a simple example but just one way we could use the flavour to generate mechanics and rules :)
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: GnKoichi on February 07, 2010, 11:35:30 AM
IMHO, there's been so much detail work suggested already between the two topics, that it might be time for people to make single-page rules pitches. Something that covers the basic setup, play, and win condition. It should also cover card types and how they are used. It should avoid specific mechanics aside from those necessary to understanding how the game is played. If several people from the Rules team make pitches like this, it will be much easier to see how this will come together. You can pick from those suggestions the rules set that works best, or you can find ways to combine them into something greater.

In my experiencing, spending more time doing detail work in these stages can be tricky, since the task is then figuring out how to make them all work together. It's much easier to go the other way. Create a framework and then go into the details from there.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 10, 2010, 04:17:10 PM
QuoteCreate a framework and then go into the details from there.
this is what i just said. we should decide on what the game would look like and how the design would be. then we can move to inserting rules and mechanics. theres no point inserting core rules on using facedown cards if facedown cards wont even be an issue for the most part

my suggestion -

a)make it symmetric. that way we can -

i)avoid faling into netrunner cliches
ii)have the possibility of subtle interactions between cards played for spying and those used for defending; it might make the game more complex. for example, an ally played to help the main character collect information on the players last turn might be able to be dismissd and sent back to base, to help you perform an aditional action to mount a defense (say represented by having split boxes for whether theyr attacking or defending a raid). this isnt possible if only one side defends or attacks

against :

i)*might lead to a broken game. by needing resources to pay for both aspects of the game, both being importnt, you mightnt have enough resources to play both, leaving yourself open. if we try to fix this by lowering the costs, that just means that its that much easier for people to just focus on the cheaper side and just spam all their resources on that. if its offense, an overwhelming rush. if defense, an overwhelming wall. itd make the edge sharper, needing you to have a strong starting to get any sort of advantage against such play, making it more vulnerable to bad opening hands. thats my first interepretaton at least. can be fixed by not using the same resources throughout (mana + actions), having a different managerial resource (shared hand of cards leading to a finite number of cards you can play until you just run of things to do), having higher costs but a boost to mana (start with two lands in play) or a combination of these

b)id like to stick abit closely to flavour but not cutting off the option to disregard it for gameplay. not that we should just throw it aside but rather, as a latter resort if we cant balance things with a theme that makes any sense. again, i think it should be done after weve truly considered all balanced and fun alternatives till we go against flavour

c)i would like hidden information to play some role but not an arbitrary one. to ask a player to guess : okay here is a card. figure it out from this card list of 50 cards : is just.... yeah. in my opinion, either we do it akin to netrunner and ask them to guess between a smaller pool of types (types of ice for example), theyll have enough work trying to guess the opponent attacking strategy and general cards in their hand. asking them to guess out of a huge card pool would be unfair. we could also ask them to guess a card that they already know of. for example, if documents + traps are a deck in themselves, we could have it faceup and visible to the opponent wat is being drawn. then they know what the options are but they have to make sure theyr inferring the right card from your actions. its just an example to highlight how it could be approached in a nonnethack way

d) documents themselves could be interpreted in a few ways. for example, documents could be pages from a  manual and the players are trying to steal each others secrets. in this way, documents could open up options : maybe as token generators? effect givers? for example - outline 52-J : you may now play Automaton cards from your hand. If you do so, discard a card. this however removes the hiddden information aspect. Or maybe the fact that they can be hidden could be used as a soft counter? flip up and gain effect or leave hidden and have them protection by their secrecy? this way, stealing documents would give the attacker a boost too. care might need to be taken, if the document is strong enough to be based completely around, then the opponent might be crippled if the 1 document is taken... this might not be a bad thing, forcing you to have to tank when playing with the more power manuals. or the power level could be low, nothing wrong with that either

another form might simply be each document gives you docu-points, maybe they start the game already in play? certain effects could work at a given level of docu-points, maybe written on the main character or in the defense building aspect

another another method mght be to have documents relate to actions you could take. kind of like the manuals idea but tied more into the gameplay. for example - pay 3 : draw a card - or - once per turn you may look at a face down card - or things along those lines. this lets the games really flow more to the players specific tastes but also has a huge effect of snowballing into a slipper slope of death, where the loss of a key ability means an eventual loss later on. a way to combat that might be to have lower key, optional effects like - pay 4 : draw a card - that are optional and more of a fallback position. but it would be hard to make the effects worth their inclusion while not making them too powerful

these are some ideas for the framework of the game. hope we can decide on what to put down for the main outline of the game, then we can work on the good parts :P
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: TheBuck on February 10, 2010, 04:41:05 PM
Ok folks I've been racking my brain with the Docs thing and this is how I see it.

The game itself should be X amount of life so chars are playable and it's the chars job to get these Docs as an alt win con, so I think the chars should be low powered and have the total life be at say 100 and have the alt win con at say 5-7 docs. The ways the docs are gotten is a prob right now, I am just drawing a blank. Traps should also be a key focus as well, and they should be used to stop people from getting the docs.

I will continue to think of things but I'm going to need feedback for not only the members of the team but the players of lackey as well so we can make a hell of a game.

On a side note I have not been any to log into lackey since Dec. I have reinstall the progy a few times and nada. When I try and log in it just idles and frezzes on me.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: GnKoichi on February 10, 2010, 05:23:36 PM
Ripplez, the difference between the suggestions you are making and my idea of moving on to full-game pitches is a matter of concreteness. There's been a lot of discussion and suggestions. At this point, a full game pitch (which, like I said, would basically be a full set of basic rules) would be a good way to move forward. If two or three people make a one-page, complete rules pitch, then we could have some more productive discussions. I'm trying to keep the steam moving here while aardvark is disconnected.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 10, 2010, 06:01:24 PM
what is the outline for the pitch?
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: GnKoichi on February 10, 2010, 06:10:35 PM
A good outline would be

QuoteOverview: (one line description)

Card Types: (bare details for each card type)

Deck Construction: (rules & restrictions)

Setup: (if necessary)

Turn Structure: (outline)

Win Conditions: (full description)

The whole thing should not take up more than a single page in Word.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on February 10, 2010, 10:12:09 PM
Good stuff, GnKoichi. People won't get the whole story with only a skeleton to tell them how the cards work together and such. With that in mind, after card types, put a (concise as possible) summary of how it all works together under Interaction.

I don't care for cards being in a deck whose only purpose is to be collected for a win. That in mind, I'd hafta say that I prefer the blueprints that Ripz mentioned.

I had a direction I was going with that thought but it escaped. (note to self: get new locks for muse's cage)

Also, I may just have to steal borrow your idea sneaselx, k? k. :D

Overview
Rival spies (spy factions?) attempt to "liberate" top secret blueprints for their shadowy employer.

Card Types
Characters
-Main Character
This is your avatar in the game. A super-spy among spies able to get what you want through any means. Take any normal ally card and add 1 to each attribute (Strength, Technology, Intelligence, Conceal).

-Ally
These are the people that make up your team and/or contacts. They will use their talents to help you achieve your goals. Spys, Politicians, Accountants, Engineers, Scientists, Guards, etc.

Trap
Cards that can be played face-down or face-up to hinder your opponent's progress. Traps can only be tripped by certain actions (event cards, moving to/from a location, attempting to liberate a blueprint)

Location
A card that represents various locations in the world. ie. Points of Light, areas in the PoLs, natural terrain between the PoLs, etc, etc.

-Stronghold
--Main Stronghold
This is your base of operations. It determines your hand limit and how many allys you can support. Your opponent cannot play ally or equipment cards here and can only play traps once they have found it. (If their intelligence is greater than the bases conceal value.) Provide a boost to skills while an Ally is in the same area (PoL) Has a conceal value.

--Satellite Base
Small field bases that allow you to have more personnel. Provide a boost to skills while in the same area (PoL). Has a conceal value, usu. greater than Main Stronghold.

-Secure locations
Document cards are stored at Secure locations (bank vaults, sock under the mattress, etc) and list requirements for the player to fulfill before accessing the document stored within. (Idea for a mobile location, ie. Armored Truck that can move with the documents inside.)

Allegiance
A separate card not in play, rather like a token. It is placed under an ally card and used to show who the character is currently working for. Main Character cards do not need allegiance cards as they can never be turned.

Event
-Active
An ongoing event that affects the game as long as it is in play. (Bribe security guards for a certain building or faction. Make your strongholds more secure. Make secure locations less secure. etc)

-Response
Event cards that can only be played in response to events and/or actions that your opponent has just taken. (Move your character away from a location. Increase stats. etc)

Equipment
Cards that enhance an ally's skill(s) (Str, Int, Tek, Con) or allow them to perform feats that they would normally be unable to do. (ie. allow an accountant to sneak past a guard or trap, ninja accountants!)


Interactions
Strength
Increases amount of equipment an ally can carry. Used against guards at secure locations.

Technology
The level of technology an ally can use and how efficiently. Used to bypass steampunk security measures (alarms) or gain access to steampunk computers(?).

Intelligence
How well a character is at gather data not known to the public. If combined Intel at one location is greater than any character's conceal, those allys are considered to be revealed.

Conceal
The character's ability to hide/blend in; How well a location is hidden from prying eyes. As long as a character's conceal is greater than the opponent's combined Intel at any one location, they cannot be targeted by general events and equipment without first setting it off.


Deck Construction
The 40-50 card deck should consist of at least:
1 stronghold location
5 locations
5 secure locations
10 allys
15 events
15 traps

1 main character (ally of your choice)
1 sideboard of allegiance cards (enough for all ally cards in both decks)

The deck cannot contain more than:
7 stronghold locations
15 locations
10 secure locations
20 allys
30 events
30 traps

There can be no more than 1 of a (*)unique card and no more than 3 of the same card.


Setup
Players must first check that they are playing with decks made up of an equal amount of cards.
Place your stronghold down in front of you and put your MC at that location. This is your starting position.
Shuffle your deck and draw 13 cards. Choose 6 cards to keep and then shuffle the remaining cards back into the deck.
Flip a coin or roll a die to see who goes first. (Depends on the number of players.)


Turn Structure
The first player has no special additions or restrictions.
Each player does the following:
Check the values of each stronghold. Generate that much influence.
Play cards.
Move Ally/Use skill(s)
Check to see if you have successfully infiltrated secure location. (See if you've fulfilled the listed requirements.)
Place any number of cards from your hand into your used pile and draw up to your main stronghold's card limit.
Turn passes to the next player.


Win Condition(s)
First to accumulate 10pts worth is the winner. (Documents are worth various points depending on their rarity.)


Lose Condition(s)
The death of your avatar.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on February 10, 2010, 10:14:41 PM
Also!

We should figure out the general outline by next week Wednesday, k? k
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: sneaselx on February 11, 2010, 10:33:37 AM
Overview:

Each player has a library, a deck, and a set of machines. Documents and False Documents go into your library, and actions, allies, traps and locations go into your deck. Each turn you may draw from either your library or your deck.
Library has 10-15 cards
Deck has 40-60
You may bring as many machines as you want. Machines can be used by either player.


-----------------------------------------
Card Types:

Spy-Same as ally, usually slightly better.

Ally-Generates resources, performs espionage, etc.
Stats:
Conceal-Used to steal things.
Technology-Used as one prereq for machines.
Intellect-Used as prereq for Actions.

Locations-Can hold a certain amount of traps. Also has multiple types that help limit machines. Exmp. Water Purification Plant - (Prereq. - Tap any ally. This machine may only build on a River-type location.) Tap in order to generate 2 water.

Machines-Can be built by having the appropriate document in play. Also usually have prerequisites. Provide permanent effects.

Documents-Name a machine they allow you to build. Only able to use if in play equipped to an ally.

False Documents-Meant to look like documents, they can be equipped to allies as normal, but usually have a negative effect when revealed.

Action- Various effects that you can activate. Usually require tapping an ally or paying resources. Types...
   Raid- Can be used at any time during an attempt to steal a document. Provide stat bonuses or weakenings, or protect from traps.
   Espionage- Used during the Main Period. Usually do things like draw cards, look at other cards, etc.
   Reaction- May be used in response to any other card.

Traps-Added to locations. When an enemy enters, activate them one at a time and apply their effects. All traps have an effect and an avoid prerequisite. If an opposing ally passes the prerequisite, the effect is not applied.

--------------------------------------

Turn:
-Draw
Main Period {
-You may play an ally or location. (At most 5 locations per person, at most one ally per location)
-You may give a document or false document to one of your allies (equip). Also during this turn, instead you may instead use the document to build a machine.
-May also use Espionage actions.
}
-If you have enough info for any of your allies to act on, you may attempt to steal a document. Move your ally to the target location. Your opponent may activate any traps, and you must try to avoid them. If you are still alive, and the your opponent's ally's Secret stat is lower than yours, you may steal the document. Any machine outlined by that document remains. If your stat is lower, you fail the steal. If your opponent's ally is tapped, ignore their stat.
-If you don't have enough info, you may tap your allies in order to use their effect. (Usually to generate info or water.)
-Check if you have at least 3 documents stolen. If so, you win.

-----------------------------------------------

The machines make the documents worth more than just win conditions, as well as providing a way to guess what kind of document it is. (Opponent set out a River location, and then added an ally to it. Then, he played a Doc card onto the ally. There is probably a good chance it is a Water Purification Plant, or something similar.) Guessing the documents beforehand means you can A. Figure out their grand strategy, B. Prioritize which documents to go for(in case you decide you want to be able to build a WPP) C. Plan for a raid, as a WPP would most likely have traps around it that require them to pay water, etc.

False documents also help add guessing and bluffing (If he's not preparing a machine there, it's probably a false document, unless he's just trying to trick me...) as well as providing a drawback if you guess wrong.

The FD and the fact that machines are not destroyed when the plans are gone is to help prevent slippery slope.

Any way to simplify would be great, as it is kind of complicated as it is.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 14, 2010, 07:27:39 PM
overview

symmetric game where people build defensive measures to stop/slow the opponents spies and offensive meausure to take documents from the opponents side, uses two decks

card types

there are two decks. in the clan deck, there are - documents, traps, characters, artifacts, resources. in the spy deck

faction card - represents the faction thats employing/sending the main character out. it has attributes :
resource type
starting resources number
communication
defense
<effect text>

resource type determines what class of starting resources you can put into your clan deck as unlimited
starting resources determines how many starting resources you take out of your clan deck at the start of the game to use as starting resources
communication is your clans starting communication attribute. communication is used to determine whether or not a card can be played or its effect works . it thematicly represents the ability to convey information to and from a particular source
defense - the number of cards from the top of your clan base you are allowed to access in order to oppose your opponents spies run
<effect text> is an effect optionaly placed on the faction

main character - start the game with him. he can either be for defense or offense. he as the following attributes :

life
combat
tinkering
communication
stealth

life - how much damage you can take
combat - determines his damage in battle
tinkering - determines his ability to play items and/or use some of their effects
communication difficulty - every character has this stat. as well. it must be equal to or lower than the communication of the clan for clan effects and clan actions to be allowed
stealth - determines a threshold check for effects to take place/fizzle

documents - you start the game with these in play as well. they lie facedown behind the clan deck. there maybe less than beneficial documents used solely to trick the opponents spies. they have the following attributes :
value points
cost
<effect text>

value points - at the end of a turn, if your document is face-up, you may score that documents value point. if it is facedown, you may remove the document from the game into a scored pile and gain points equal to its value points amount
cost - to flip face up
<effect text> - an effect that takes place. usualy when faceup, not necessarily tho

characters - guards of the clan base. they have the attributes :
life
combat
communication difficulty
presence

life, combat and communication difficulty is the same as for main chars
presence - determines the liklihood of overcoming the stealth attributes of the opponents spies

traps - traps of all sorts that have to be passed in order to get to the documents. they make make a threshold check, a payment check, a type check and so on. they have the attributes :

cost
trap criteria
trap effect

cost - to play. might be free, if so a trigger will usually be needed to play it
trap criteria - the effort needed to pass the trap
trap effect - what happens if you fail. might have a beneficial effect if passed

artifacts - permanents that can be played in front of the clan deck to give benefits. they have attributes :

cost
<effect text>

attributes do the same thing

the spy deck has the following cards in it - allies, items, skills, clan cards

allies - like characters in the clan deck. they have the attributes :

life
combat
tinkering
communication difficulty
stealth

attributes do the same

items - they are items, including equipment, mechas and things. they have the attributes :

cost
tinkering threshold
exclusivity
<effect text>

cost and <effect text> do the same thing
tinkering threshold - the amount of tinkering you minimum to be able to use the item
exclusivity - whether or not you can only have one of this card type

skill cards - gives the main character and/or allies effects and/or boosts or penalties. they are used mostly during the spy phase. they have the following attributes :

cost
<effect text>

attributes do the same thing

clan cards - these represent commands given by the clan to characters, to the opponent, to the game world etc. they are essentialy able to change the game system, adding draw phases or returning cards from battle are a few of the things they are capable of. another way of thinking about them is that they give what is essentialy a game option by the player, as opposed to an option of the character. for example, a skill card might say your characters break away from combat. the clan card might say choose a character card and remove it from combat. one is localised to the character perspective. the other takes more into account. they have attributes :

cost
communication
<effect text>

cost and <effect text> are the same. communication is the value used against which you make the check. it is NOT the same as communication difficulty, its the value you must compare comm. diff. against

deck construction

clan deck must have 50 cards min. upto 4 copies of any card. any amount of starting resources
spy deck must have 40 cards min. upto 3 copies of any card
in addition, one faction card, one main character card and a number of documents such that they have in total 20 points of documents min.

setup

put the spy deck separate from the clan deck. put the main character inf ront of the spy deck. put the faction card in between the clan deck and spy deck. put the documents facedown in one stack behind the clan deck. that is now known as the document stack. you may look at the top five cards of the clan deck and put them back in any order on top. draw 7 cards from the spy deck. you may put those cards under the deck and draw a fresh 7 - mulligan. this can be done only once. the first turn, runs cannot be made

turn structure

the turns are arranged as -

|restore phase - start phase - draw phase  - clan phase1 - P2 Defense Phase/P1 Defense Phase - clan phase2 - P1 Spy Phase/P2 Spy Phase - (Score Phase) - End Phase |

start phase is for triggers. restore phase is for readying every exhausted card thats legal to do so. draw phase draws 1 card from the spy deck. clan phase is for playing clan cards legal to do so here. you must also decide what your next phase will be - Spy or Defense

if you choose defense, your opponents phase immediately after that will be spy phase. similarly, if you choose spy, your opponent will go first with their defense phase. after that group is resolved, you then take the phase you didnt choose. ie p2 defense - p1 spy - p1 defense - p2 spy OR p1 defense - p2 spy - p2 defense - p1 spy

if your last phase was to defend and it was your turn, you have a score phase at the end of your turn before the end phase. ie only p2 defense - p1 spy - p1 defense - p2 spy grants you the score phase

your phases have intrinsic abilities :
1)during your clan phase you may use your clan effect.
2)once per turn, during your main phases (the sets of 2 phases each), you may give a clan command to dismiss an ally from the spy field to come to your clan deck area to help defend or you may send a character from your clan deck to the spy field to help the espionage. attributes that are missing are treated as 0.
3)during your clan phase, you may make a surveillance check. if your stealth is higher than your opponents current outside presence, your opponent must tell you the card types present in the  number of top cards of their clan deck where the number is equal to their current defense value OR during your clan phase, once per turn, you may put the top cards equal to your defense value, at the bottom of your deck. this is a shared opportunity with surveillance - you can do one or the other but not both in the same turn

during your spy phase, you may play the spy field. during your defense phase, you play in the clan deck area. the same resources are used for both

during the spy phase, you make a run on the opponents clan deck. if you pass a presence check by having more stealth than your opponents presence, then you may target a document. your opponent then reveals, one at a time, cards from the top equal to their factions defense value. they pay the cost and thespy party is regarded as approaching that trap. when passed, the spy party continues to the card. once all are passed and no more cards can be revealed, then you reach the document and score it

during the defense phase, you may reveal the top cards equal to your defense value and rearrange those cards in any order. you may then pay the cost of any card in that group to play the card as long as its legal to do so, this is how you play artifacts, characters and so on as permanents. you may also pay the cost and flip your documents faceup, in which case they form a document stack of their own. each faceup document forms its own stack. the defense value works for the whole turn so if it is 3, then you have to defend the main document stack with 3 cards. if you happen to have two stacks, you must defend both with 3 as well. and onwards and upwards

win conditions

you need to score a certain number of points to win. scoring from your documents or scoring by stealing your opponents gives the same amount of value points.
you lose if your spy deck is empty but you must draw because the mission is considered a failure
the game is NOT over when the main character dies. but it will get harder to win

interaction

i explained all the effects and base rules earlier. the way the phases are set is so that if you want to attack, you get the ability to know what your going up against but you cannot change your clan deck with your one free action because you alredy used it on the surveillance. you also dont get to score directly, you have to successfully steal. the reason spy work comes during the second set of phases is important is that if your opponent uses their resources to attack you, then the cards they can play for defense suffers. likewise, if you defend later, you get a chance to fix your deck but then your own attacks are weaker. the pay off here is that your scoring directly. the strength in attacking last is that your defense is more mind-gamey. if your opponent fears your offense, they wont press as strong because of your later attack. however they get to see how to defend after youv spent all your resources on your own defense early in the turn. the switch in phases essentialy is there to provide play and counterplay to aggressive and defensive tactics. i dont know if it works out correctly, it seems like it would to me

the reason the clan decks are in the spy deck is so that using a clan card doesnt thin your clan deck excessively making attempts to figure out what cards are in their defense range (the top cards equal in number to their defense value) are worthless

a side effect of the faceup document forming stacks is that for faceup documents more than the base defense value, you have to find a way to increase the defense value or hope your opponent cannot make a run on all of your documents

sorry if its too long. im not good at not rambling. hope it helps. theres alot of repeated text so that might make it look longer than it really is in length. i didnt know how to explain the game without giving full detail of how itd work
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 18, 2010, 09:13:54 AM
how do we decide on what were going to use and in what form?
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: GnKoichi on February 18, 2010, 06:18:28 PM
My suggestion would be a small period of review, giving each contributor a chance to refine their pitch.

Basically, everyone involved in the process (including the three pitchers) would review all the pitches (aside from their own). The pitchers should not respond directly to criticisms or questions about their ideas. Instead, they should take any advice they feel is worthwhile and incorporate it into a new pitch. After all the reviews are posted, the pitchers will make their second (improved) pitches. Then we can just vote, since the discussion will essentially have already taken place.

That's just my suggestion. There are certainly pros and cons to doing it this way. I think aardvark should make the final call of how we proceed.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on February 18, 2010, 10:16:27 PM
Looking back at this it feels a little too much like everyone is doing their own project. I know I haven't been on as much I would like to lately but let's see some more banter from the team members, discuss your ideas teamsters. (wicked, shoddy connection and business, argh! >:( )

I suggest that, using the aforementioned overviews, we take what we like and see if we can't find a way to mesh it together; make it work as a whole. I want us to work together as much as possible.

What did YOU like about the overviews? Let your voice be heard. Let's make this thing.

GOAL DATE: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 2200PST

Let's hop to it.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 19, 2010, 02:54:39 PM
im not making a second pitch for my pitch. ill talk about the other two if you want
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on February 20, 2010, 10:42:53 AM
Just talk about what ideas you liked that were thrown out. If you don't want to make a second pitch then that's fine. Work with me, ya?

I guess I'll get it started then.
I'm obviously a bit biased towards my own ideas. (I wouldn't put them out there if I didn't like 'em.)
I like sneaselx's use of locations and traps quite a bit, even more than my own if that's possible,  ;) as well as the correlation between documents and machines. Not to forget the false documents and tying in the whole water issue. Well done, boyo.

I also like Ripz' communication idea. Though I don't think that ally cards should be unable to use their effects if the communication value isn't high enough. The middle ground ground here could introduce another tactic, competence, (if communications is used) the higher an ally's competence the more cards they can use. So a small time hood would not have access to the faction's higher tech and would not act without going through the proper channels. Someone on the level of 007, on the other hand, would be able to equip all sorts of super tech and get away with acting on his own most of the time. I guess competence sounds like a combination tinkering threshold and communications actually. Hmmm.

I question moving the face down document into a score pile without some sort of counter mechanic (ie Netrunner), unless that is what you meant. If so, sorries. o_0

I quite like the clan cards too. Not everyone's cup of tea but I wouldn't mind seeing it implemented.

I'm not fond of making the players take certain phases based on the other player's action(s). Would you kindly explain your thoughts behind it.

I do like the clan's abil to recall agents from the field to defend the home base. Spot on!
Also, the way the run is setup is very good. I think it could use some tweaking but as it stands it would be a nice addition.

---

So, based on what's in front of me now. I wouldn't mind seeing a mix of the following:

sneaselx's
locations, traps, documents and false documents, resource system

Ripz'
two deck system, agent recall ability, faction card (tweaked), artifacts

aardvark's
allegiance system (abil to turn an opponent's ally to your side), main character (aka avatar)


THAT is what I would like to see. Once you guys let it be known what YOU want to see we'll put it together and THEN decided on the phases. k? k
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 20, 2010, 06:17:08 PM
communication is largely a static value. it fluctuates in cartain conditions and with card effects but there arent that many cards that are like : give +1 comm until end of the turn. communication doesnt completely shut down abilities on cards. its more along the lines of shutting down certain abilities or making them harder without a buff. for example -

an ally has : pay 2 : draw a card.

now when you make the run and your opponent springs their trap, you could pay 2 and draw a card on reaction to the trap, making it much more likely you got what you needed to pass it, can now pay a discard cost you couldnt before and so on, while making your opponent work with false information on what you could and couldnt do. yes, its true they can see the ally and its effect early on but it trivialises the impact of the effect while making it harder for the defender to actually influence it in any way.

however, suppose (and in original concept this was true) communication was lowered when making a run, to symbolise you going into enemy terriotry with nothing but your wits. also suppose the ally had this effect instead : pay 2. comm 3 threshold : draw a card. if normally in this example, comm went down to 1 during a run, you couldnt do this effect and would instead have to do it before the run. you still gain the advantage but its much clearer what your resources are being tapped for, giving the defender more reliable info to work with. but it does allow for deception if you try and raise your comm value / reduce your comm difficulty

another thing is that communication acts like a additional balance value in some cases, an additional stat that determines some of the more powerful effects. an effect like : put an ally into play from your hand for free doesnt need to be unplayable because of too high a mana cost - you can have it need a slightly larger comm value than normal. this enables the cost to be based more on a combo of cards than a direct mana cost. it gives it more flexibility. communication isnt just to balance out characters, it balances out cards and actions that can be taken as a whole while also providing the ability to power up cards. this is why it exists rather than something like competence, its meant to serve as a reward/limiter on more powerful effects, cards and clan cards, to go over it beats the purpose of the stat

clan cards are like sorceries or instants from magic that have a special theme and use the communication ability. theyr playable during the clan phase. their purpose is to augment your clan while skills and traps and things augment the field. thats a slight difference. the reason they deserve a card of their own, besides the theme, is that it slows down things a little. you cannot augment your run with : i do +3 damage to every card and pass every check under 10 whooooo : without your opponent noticing this and having time to react. doesnt detract from the effect but your opponent will now know whats going on and wont just be blindsided. thats what skill cards are for :S the instants are more suited for within phase play as a way to adapt to things. i think for the sake of clarity ill call them clan commands. faction cards are what refer to the faction that hires you and has the states with communication and stuff

the reason facedown cards can be scored is related to why the phases are taken in turns and forced. note that i left out a big point - you must control the document to be scored from the beginning of the turn to when your actually going to score it

your opponent essentialy takes his turns during your turn. your role as the turn player isnt to develop solo during your turn but to decide the order the development takes place. the following is going to be a very theory heavy explanation...... here goes -

justifying scoring as a phase isnt really something i can do. i didnt want to copy netrunner and tbh, i never liked the way you scored agendas in that game. its one of the few mechanics i hated. this explanation will run based on the fact that scoring occurs in a phase. this game cannot use a standard turnbased system where we power up on  our respective turns. given that scoring works as a separate phase,  there must be a way for the opponent to combat your scoring. since  running is the major way to do that, runs have to come before your time  to score the document.

during a single turn, you and your opponent both develop your defense and offense. the turn player decides who goes first in development. now if the spy develops before the defender, then the defender is at a loss. but the defender loses more, since by losing a document to the spy, they also lose the ability to flip it faceup for a benefit. the spy on the other hand has a win-more situation here, since they win by scoring their cards as well when they take the role of defender, they rob the opponent of score and they rob them of the documents ability

a result of all of this is that the defender generally has more to lose if the run is successful than if the run fails, since the spy can just take point as the defender and try to score that way as well (theres a reason why this is not completely true in the final version, its true here because this start of the argument does not use the system iv outlined earlier; mark it as Point 1). as a result, the defender is given the chance to develop before the spy. so regardless of what the first phase the turn player chooses, the defender has to go first. this leaves the combinations -

P1Def-P2Def-P1Spy-P2Spy
P1Def-P2Def-P2Spy-P1Spy
P1Def-P2Spy-P2Def-P1Spy

P2Def-P1Spy-P1Def-P2Spy
P2Def-P1Def-P1Spy-P2Spy
P2Def-P1Def-P2Spy-P1Spy

out of all the combinations where the defense goes first and the opponents spying goes second, four of the six involve the two defense phases to run one after the other. this means that, unless you wish to play artifacts and things, for the most part, relative to the opponent, you burn no mana uptil the spy phase


P1Def-P2Def-P1Spy-P2Spy : can be beaten down if player 1 simply plays with low artifacts. P1 will get to work with all their mana while the opponent has to defend the spy runs, burning their mana on traps. then by the time they get to go, their resources to spend will be depleted by some non-zero amount. this is too powerful and nerfs alot of the strategy. the second player is being penalised simply by going first and all the pressure is being taken on by P2 since they have to balance their mana while P1 does this at their own luxury. if P1 wins on his spy phase and defends successfully, hes clearly ahead. if he wins and he loses on his own spy phase, congrats you tied. theres very little in the way of actually losing here for P1

for this reason, P2Def-P1Def-P1Spy-P2Spy is removed from the pool as well, same effect diff iteration

this leaves P1Def-P2Def-P2Spy-P1Spy and P2Def-P1Def-P2Spy-P1Spy. both of these put the punishment on yourselves. the moment you sacrifice development for score, you wind up helplessly behind when your opponent has marshalled ten diff allies and is making a beeline for your clan. you cant return the favour since your behind on spy development, having wasted your mp on defense the first turn and this being exacerbated since your opponent can just pick the other options from now on and keep attacking you, leaving you having to burn mana in order to stay alive or resign to your fate (and lose a document) and try and build up a spy force to take them down

and this is the problem. there is no normal punishment for turtling, you just blow it wide apart with nitroglycerine. because the first two phases involve doing essentially nothing, it has no impact on the rest of the turn. scoring is largely independant

this is why the third set of options -  P1Def-P2Spy-P2Def-P1Spy and P2Def-P1Spy-P1Def-P2Spy were chosen as the only order of phases that could be used. this allowed the ruling that score phases only appear if your last phase was a defense phase be used because the defense phase isnt that far removed from the end of the turn (unlike the first two sets of options, where they mean very little in terms of resource usage since everything can be stored for the spy runs and defending those)

Point 1 - which is where this turns up. P1Def-P2Spy-P2Def-P1Spy lets you see what your opponent will do when they try to make a run on you, lets you defend at your leisure and lets you make a run on them after they have used their mana, letting you know exactly how much mana they have left to play things..... but it doesnt let you SCORE. this phase gives you all the advantages you need for a successful run, balanced by the fact that you have to defend a run and conserve your own mana first so that you can play cards later. you cannot trivially fail a run and take point as defender because scoring is simply not one of the benefits you receive. however lets take a look at hwen you CAN score - P2Def-P1Spy-P1Def-P2Spy. in order to defend properly on your opponent spy phase, you have to conserve mana on your spy phase..... but whats this? this turns into the example above - P1Def-P2Spy-P2Def-P1Spy - but with YOU as P2. and here, your opponent knows exactly what he is up against and is offered the same advantages to your opponent. and this is the tax turtling pays, in order to score, you have to defend at a time when almost all of your resources are known. if you pick to score on turn 1, your opponent will have no clearcut way of destroying you. sure they can pick P2Def-P1Spy-P1Def-P2Spy to try and abuse your lack of spy work now but they also have less strong defense, since they used it to try and fight you before. but if they try to force you to lose more through crushing spywork, using a P1Def-P2Spy-P2Def-P1Spy, you can try and force them to use mana, so their offense isnt as strong when its their turn

basically, the final result of having phases alternate allows the fact that one is defensive and one is offensive to actually affect the game flow. your choices depend on understandign how your options are limited/benefitted by it, it only adds strategy rather than the other two options. and the card choices you make still matter, not making the advantage/disadvantage fixed by the game design alone. it is also why scoring facedown documents isnt as broken. When you score them, you instantly lose the document. but you doing so isn't trivial, the opponent is able to oppse it and it only comes through after facing pressure. tfirst turn player doesn't get a score phase. and it only builds up from turn 2 onwards

that.... is probably the longest and most intense balancing iv done short of the spirits rising balancing. and thats really a close call. if yuo get through all that, have a cookie *gives cookie* but thats why i felt that facedown cards being scored wasnt major, it brings you closer to winning but doing so removes the faceup boon it could give and doesnt really stop your opponent from their development. the key is that you need to score multiple cards to win, not just one or two
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on February 21, 2010, 03:20:16 PM
o_0 eep

Good eye for detail on that Ripz. Any thoughts on the what you would like to see in the final mix? Not including phases mind ye'.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: sneaselx on February 21, 2010, 07:22:05 PM
Ripplez:: I like the idea of attack/counterattack you have going, but is there possibly a way to make it simpler to understand? I think I understand...

Communications is interesting. I think that being able to increase communications should be more common than you say they are.
It especially makes card design more interesting.

I think avatars are pretty much set in stone. Also, most of the ideas seem to be leaning toward dual decks.
Traps acting as encounters around locations/documents seem to also be a general theme.

The allegiance system is also a good idea. Perhaps a way to adjust loyalty that isn't just effects, though? Something built in.
I do not like having to have a separate card to mark it's loyalty. Perhaps just two different color counters? Green for player one, and blue for player two, and +1 green is the same as -1 blue.



My idea about linking machines with documents still needs a lot of work, to prevent the first player to capture a document from receiving a major advantage.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 21, 2010, 07:48:35 PM
tl;dr : the alternatign of defense and attack phases allows for resourcs to be used before and after attacking, making a) resource management and staggering important adn b) allowing a soft counter to turtling/overaggressiveness

communications is meant to be meaningful. the idea of needing to spend mana and cards on levelling up your other cards is meant to be something special. opening a box and finding 41/100 cards increasing your communications value just trivialises the theme and the importance of the value as a balancer and upgrade/diminisher. 8/100 unique would be much closer to what i felt would be a proper representation. remember your not going to have 100 diff cards in your deck. the card designs interesting because you cannot just have 12 different copies of comm raisers in your 40+ card deck
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: sneaselx on February 22, 2010, 06:57:53 PM
I disagree. I think that the limiting factor of communications is too extreme to just have a set value. Since high communications could unlock both low levels and high levels, and low communications can only unlock low levels, there is very little reason to want to do a low-comm deck. The same decks work with low-comm and high-comm, only high-comm has a clear advantage. Even higher other stats would be unable to over weigh it. It would be like having one super creature in magic, where you could either increase that creatures stats by 1, or play a free land. You would always choose the free land, because it gives you more options than stats ever could. However, with a freely variable comm, you could build a deck around other combos that could give you the comm you need.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on February 22, 2010, 11:30:22 PM
GOAL DATE EXTENDED: Saturday, February 27, 2010.

I like the dialogue. Keep it up.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 23, 2010, 02:14:16 PM
a higher communication requirement is a luxury not the norm. its not like pokemon, characters and spells and stuff dont all have higher levels of power to unlock. just a few. theres also the fact that communication will probably drop during runs and things. it also might be a resource for the opponent to attack. its not the norm to have or need high communication but it does help and it should be reflected as a powerful resource not a dime a dozen stat change. theres no need to raise it for most cards, the number of cards that would need a higher communication would probably be like 5%. the numbers of cards that would refer to communication at all would be like 33% and those cards would be powered down when the comm drops during events, which is another aspect of the value. maintaining a higher comm value works there. communications isnt some stat to make half the cards irrelevant. its take make a few cards in the minority much stronger with some effort

heres a closer effect : At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control five or more lands, put four +1/+1 counters on Scute Mob

except that five lands is normal in a game of m:tg. getting additional comm. needs extra cards to get out. scute mob doesnt obsolete every card that doesnt work like this. but its a good solid card. also the literal keyword threshold. didnt obsolete everything else even though it was a very strong mechanic. except that here it has more than one direct use
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on February 25, 2010, 08:52:04 PM
So what kind of card do you think would work like Scute Mob with the communications mech?
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 25, 2010, 09:11:24 PM
in a system where base faction comm is taken to be 5 and clan comm in runs is 0

merchant spy : ally
cost 4
life 2
combat 1
tinkering 4
comm diff 3

comm diff 3 : when your opponent plays a card during their defense phase, you may draw a card then select one card in your hand and put it back on top of your deck
comm diff 6 : when your opponent plays a character or artifact card during their defense phase, you may draw a card


forged orders
clan card
cost 3

comm diff 6 : dismiss one of your opponent's allies to their clan area

mercenary leader
ally
cost 5
life 3
combat 3
tinkering 2
comm diff 4

comm diff 2 : target character card exhausts this run
comm diff 4 : when your opponent plays a trap card this run, you may put a ally into play with the keyword 'Dismantler'. sacrifice it at the end of the run


need to find a system wherin clan comm is stronger the bigger the number but comm from a card must be lower or equal to succeed a check. and if we use a run = less comm system, then a way to have that make sense too
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: sneaselx on February 27, 2010, 01:33:26 PM
I would like to make a motion to have no more than five card types. With this large, complicated game, it there are already many different cards, with drastically different timing, etc.

Maybe we could combine multiple types into one, seperated by a keyword and some text?

All Current Proposed Types:
Avatar
Ally/Character
Location
Trap
Document/False Document
Faction
Clan
Machine
Resource

Which of these is necessary? Which ones can we merge? Which can we get rid of?
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on February 27, 2010, 04:25:34 PM
faction is avatar already

i dont understand machine. can resources be machines? like steam engines or clockwork mechanisms or thing?

you forgot skill cards. not even my version fo skill cards but essentially the sorcery/instant card type of the game

yeah, i dont think its going down to five :P maybe we should first figure out what the game will be like before trying to figure out how many card types therell be. and really, having more than 5 isnt necesarily a bad thing
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on February 27, 2010, 05:55:07 PM
Yah, makes sense. Slim the list down a bit.

faction is avatar? you mean clan? ???
Avatar is YOU, the player, a unique Ally card with stats higher than normal.

Clan becomes just Faction. Maybe it just me and semantics but Faction seems more appropriate Fluff-wise.

As I recall "character" was just the term used to refer to all of the people type cards. ie Avatar and Allys.
While machines was never a mandatory user-voted idea, it could be used to include Traps as a sub-part. ie. Devices - Traps sorta deal.

Resource cards will depend on whether or not we use actual cards to determine how many "resources" we have.I know that what I suggested what purely abstract. No actual cards used to determine how resource rich the player is. Ripz listed Resources under the cards types included in her decks. But I'm not quite sure about you, sneaselx. Looking back at your post I can see this going either way. It seems that Ally cards would be able to generate resources but you also mention playing resources. If you would please clarify, that'd be great. Unless you meant it both ways. ???
Of course, like I said, whether or not resources are actual cards / card types depends on our final iteration of the gameplay / mechanics.

So...

characters (Avatar and Allys)
Location
Document / False Document
Faction
Machina - Traps / Equipment / Weapons
(Resources?)

Without resources as a card type, we can easily trim this all down to five basic types. And imo resource cards are not a necessity in a card game. Suggestions? Feedback?
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: sneaselx on February 28, 2010, 12:33:28 PM
faction was a card that would designate init stats, similar to avatar.
From what I read, I thought clan cards basically were skill cards. (like clan commands.), though I may be mistaken.

In my post, there were two resources: Info and Water. Water was generated by some machines, and also used by other machines. Info was generated by allies, and could be spent to initiate a run. Machine were basically permanents that provided some constant effect, which was in contrast to traps, which did nothing until activated.

It seems to me that Faction should be implicit in how you build your deck, not a card in itself. If allies belong to a Faction, building a deck around a Faction card basically means the same as building a deck around those ally cards.

I prefer a cumulative init, where several cards you choose set up the game. For example, instead of having a Faction that says: "Start with 5 resource X and 12 resource Y.", have an ally that says "Increase starting resX by 2 and starting resY by 5." and an equipment that says "Increase starting resX by 3 and starting resY by 7 if all your allies belong to FactionA"
Some cards could increase starting values, but would have weaker game effects, meaning you had to balance between good effects and a good start. It would also mean you would have more control over your decks performance, as you wouldn't be limited by what Faction cards exist.


Never mind, got the chip off my shoulder.

Also, should the focus be on the run itself, or on the setup?
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on March 03, 2010, 06:48:09 PM
why not both?
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: sneaselx on March 03, 2010, 07:27:32 PM
Been working on a possible ruleset based on combining the three pitches. I tried to use the strongest ideas from each pitch, and common terminology. If you think any part of it is not perfect, just say so.

---------------------------------------------
Syncretic Game Idea

Character:
Name
Type (avatar or not, etc.)
Cost (If not avatar.)
Spy Stat (Used to avoid guards/ spot spies. Combined Intel/Conceal)
Loyalty (The difficulty of turning this unit. More later.)
Effect[Communications Difficulty]
   
Location:
-Cost (Pay in order to put into play. Usually not large. May be free.)
-Types (2 or more. Used as Prereqs for various things.)
-Size (Maximum number of Allies or Major machina allowed. Includes traps.)
   
Document:
-Name
-Name of Machina. (All Major machina require documents. Some Minor machina, also.)
-Other effect[CommDiff?] (May be used for other things, including bad effects.)

Skill:
-Name
-Type (Clan, Spy, or Neutral)
-Cost (Pay to play.)
-Effect[CommDiff]

Machina:
Name
-Type (Major, Minor, or Trap. Major represent buildings and vehicles, Minor represents
equipment. Major machina MUST have the appropriate face up document in play.)
-Cost (Required to play.)
-Traps:
Traps also have several prereqs for spies to pass them. These can include having
certain keywords, paying a specific resource, or tapping a card. They also have
an activation penalty, for when a spy fails the prereq.
      
   
Faction:
-Starting Resource Number (epecially useful for setup)
-Communications Value
-Defense (How many Spy cards you can draw to defend your base.)
(May only have one of this card.)
Init:
::Two Decks:
One deck contains allies, locations, documents, and machina. Basically,
anything you need to setup your playfield. (clan deck)
      
The other deck contains allies, skills and machina. (spy deck)

Each player draws five cards from their Clan deck, and
can set up their playfield. (Needs at least one location, and
one doc.) Then, return the rest to your Clan deck.
Each player puts their avatar on any location they control.
   
There are two playfields, clan and spy.
:Clan includes locations, documents, and Major machina. This is where you defend against enemy runs.
:Spy includes allies and equipment. Locations are not played in the Spy playfield, but allies in the
spy playfield are still affiliated with a location.
{Skills can be played either place, depending on type.}
{Only allies in the Spy playfield can enter a run, and only allies in the Clan
field can defend a run. Once per turn, you can change one ally to another playfield.}

Phases:
-Start Phase:
Untap all cards. Then, you may move one of your allies between playfields.
-Action Phases: (flow according to Rippelz rules.)
-Clan phase: draw cards from your deck according to your Defense value. You may
play as many of them as you want. After your turn is up, discard them.
      
--Spy phase(Prep): You may draw cards from your spy deck equal to your communications. Use
these cards to prepare.
--Spy phase(Run): This part of the Spy phase is optional. In this part, declare an opponent's location.
you enter the trap portion. All traps at that location are revealed, one by one,
and your spies have to deal with them by passing the prereqs. If you fail, your spies will be weakened.
Both players may play any Spy skill if the timing of the skill is correct.
Add up all your allies' Spy value, and compare it with your opponent's cumulative Spy value.
If you suceed, all documents at the target location are yours.
-Resources: Water is generated by some Major machina, and is required as upkeep for other machina. Some machina may also
convert Water to electricity (Sparkies Faction) to run other machina. Water is used to play physical cards.
-Influence allows skills and additional allies. Influence is generated by tapping allies in you Clan playfield.

-Allegiance: Instead of generating resources, you may tap an ally to put one counter on an opponent's ally.
If the counters on the ally are greater than its Loyalty value, you take control of the ally, and all counters
are removed.
------------------------------------

Note:
I did get rid of having a permanent hand completely. This may be controversial, and the wrong move. It's just the way that seemed most appropriate to me at the time. Anyone with a better way, just say it.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on March 05, 2010, 12:25:02 AM
Wow. That's really well put together. You did a good job in combining everything.  It's minimal and not overly complicated. Kudos eh.

I'll go with this unless I hear any objections. *crickets chirp*

I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on March 05, 2010, 05:17:10 AM
where are machina and documents stored till they are used in a way that ensures that they ARE machina and documents - but doesnt reveal what they are? if you put them in the clan deck, how will you guarantee your opponent has something to make runs for? sorry i didnt catch that in the outline you gave

is it possible to score documents you control yourslf? its not important if it isnt, just wondering. it would change the flow of the game,

why does it use a temporary hand? what if you wanted to respond to something your opponent did on their turn? if your using my phase alternation, remember that these alternate phases come during each players turn, the only diff is who gets to decide the order. so it would be alot more disadvantageous if your not the turn player because you wouldnt have any sorcery/instant level cards to play, just using the effects off of permanents. i dont mind if you dont want to use the phase alternation as a result

if you explain the points i just mentioned and theyr ok, then i have no other problems. everything else can just be worked out later, this would be good enough to get started :)
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: sneaselx on March 05, 2010, 03:29:52 PM
1. Documents are initially placed face down at the location. Major Machina cannot be played at all until the appropriate document is face up in play. Traps are played face down on or around a location, but separate from the documents. Minor Machina are just played equipped to an ally, or whatever depending on their effect.
In order to make sure you always have at least one document,(or something your opponent thinks is a document.), you have to play at least one in the beginning of the game. However, as you need them in order to build a decent economy, you are encouraged to play more, unlocking more choices.
2. I don't know. Actually, looking at it again, it seems I forgot a way to win entirely. Woops.

3.I used a temporary hand mainly because it turned out that way while I was trying to interpret the phase structure of your post. Feel free to rewrite the phase part, by the way. What if, to fix the lack of instants, you could play card from you temporary hand into a permanent hand. They wouldn't be allowed to be played for a while, or would cost resources, or something, but you could activate them quickly.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on March 05, 2010, 04:06:12 PM
the document thng might need to wait till theres a way to win. without a way to win, how the documents will be implemented seems hardt o do

why not just have the instant speed stuff be based on card type? that way cards meant to be played during a phase are playable and things that can be played in response can be played in response
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on March 08, 2010, 07:16:08 AM
why dont we just have the documents shuffled as part of the clan deck and drawn with the hand. they can be played as documents facedown or faceup in locations. it also helps introduce the ambiguity over whether or not its a document or a trap. the win condition could be to take the documents with documents stored in your lcations giving like 1 victory point a turn

and i still say let spell speed be baased on card type
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: sneaselx on March 08, 2010, 08:31:43 AM
I don't understand what you mean by spell speed. If you mean having seperate card types for when different cards can be activated, it is because I felt that many different card types was redundant. But its not my game, so yeah.

I think putting documents in the clan deck is a good idea. Unless anyone disagrees, I propose that is now how they work.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: TheBuck on March 08, 2010, 12:30:31 PM
OH CRAP, I thought the game just stopped. But the thread was just moved. Im gonna have to see what you all got and give my 2cents now. Wow sorry for the lack of input on my part.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on March 08, 2010, 04:56:47 PM
QuoteI used a temporary hand mainly because it turned out that way while I was trying to interpret the phase structure of your post. Feel free to rewrite the phase part, by the way. What if, to fix the lack of instants, you could play card from you temporary hand into a permanent hand.

thats why i brought up spell speed. we can always just add spell speed to skill cards and clan cards and things

the document points are to give incentive to actually place documents down, since placing them also makes them vulnerable, at least you get a benefit for it
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on March 11, 2010, 03:41:42 PM
so.... when do we decide if this is a version to keep?
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: aardvark on March 15, 2010, 10:03:05 PM
well, put in yer own 2 cents, wot?

I say that this version works for me. I'm pretty sure that sneaselx is a'right with it. That leaves you and theBuck (if he has anything else to add).
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: TheBuck on March 16, 2010, 08:17:03 AM
TheBuck is having a hard time digging the feel of this game. From what TheBuck has read it sounds like it would be playable and not to broken as of now.
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: Ripplez on March 16, 2010, 08:27:59 AM
i dont mind. like i said, the base seems good and anythign that doesnt work can be ironed out in playtesting, like the temporary hand stuff and things
Title: Re: Community Game: Rules & Mechanics
Post by: TheBuck on March 18, 2010, 04:18:35 AM
Get rid of the Satellite Base save that for a diff update. Don't want to bog people down.

Strength should not be how much EQ someone can carry. Each char should have a max of EQs allowed. I can see Strength being abused right off the bat.

Trap cards should only be placed face down then turned up during certain actions. What good is a trap if someone can see what it is before hand? Not much of a trap if you ask me.

There should be Stronghold only EQs say like "Alarm System"

Not all events should be whole game, some should conclude once X is met.

All allys should be unique.


Some of my card ideas.
Trap
Damn Dogs:
Flip once an opponents ally enters your Stronghold.
Guard dogs swarm the target and remove him from the stronghold.
-----
Ally
Big Bad Buck
Big Bad Buck can cancel out one trap once per turn at the cost of one win point.
-----
Event
Fakes!
Play only if opponent would win this turn.
Any win points that were won turn out to be fake. No points awarded.
-----
EQ
Make Shift Weapon
May only be played at rocky locals.
Retrieve a discarded weapon from your discard pile and play it on target ally. The weapons stats are half of what they are normally.


These are just some simple ideas so you guys can see how my mind works.