LackeyCCG

UPDATE 27th of March 2013

Final version of the rulebook as well as the worldbook can be found at project homepage (please note that proofreading is still in progress)

http://www.godsandminions.com/downloads

UPDATE 2nd of March 2013

Addes new information to this thread, as well as a few pictures.

Project Introductory Post


Hello LackeyCCG Community!

My name is Tobias, most of you will already know me, my nick is Malagar on this board.
I have been working on carious CCG designs over the past years, parts of them have been
discussed here. We also tried to realize a community CCG once (or was it twice?). Well
after several downfalls I managed to finally start a "true project" on my own. The bare
"skeleton" of my new CCG is ready, at the moments its just all about balancing, expanding,
clear-writing and painting art. This project will be released under two different licences:

A). free print and play version, as well as a free lackeyccg version later on.
B). as print-on-demand via thegamecrafter.com - but it will cost you a bit to get your
personal copy.

Im targeting this post on the "old-boarders", especially those who where interested in a
project a while ago. Maybe there are some among you, who might be interested to collaborate
and develop new rules and factions for the game. Please note that i cannot pay you, as
all my earnings are currently going straight into the art, technology and printing department.

So, what is Gods & Minions about?

Gods & Minions is a card based tactical wargame, so
one game represents one battle. You and your opponent each represent
generals who command their troops. The troops are displayed using cards.
Compared to a full wargame (like Warhammer), Gods & Minions is much
lighter on the rules and compared to a customizable card game (like
Legend of the five Rings), Gods & Minions focus is 100% on the battles
(instead of kingdom building, diplomacy or intrigue).

What are the games unique features?

* Full-fledged and affordable tabletop wargaming system without expensive miniatures
* Manaless resource system without staple cards that clutter your deck
* No artificial rarities ? you get exactly the cards and amount of copies you want
* Lightweight wargame rules prevent slow gameplay without being over simplified
* Unique rules core that does not lend its main mechanics from the big CCG ancestors
* All rules and cards will be available for download. for free. always.
* You pay only if you want a printed copy (physical product) of your own via TGC.
* No dice: Gods & Minions does not require any additonal component or luck factor!
* No Grid & No Rulers: An innovative movement system renders rulers obsolete.
* No shallow story: Dive into a background world full of history and folklore.

Finally, is there already something to see?

Yep there is. The website is up and running, content is added on a weekly basis.

http://www.godsandminions.com (http://www.godsandminions.com)

If you are interested, please contact me directly via eMail. Also check out
the project website first and take the effort to read at least some paragraphs
to decide if this project is for you. Then you are welcome to drop me a line:

tobias at godsandminions.com

-Tobias (alias Malagar, Author of Gods & Minions)


--
Gods & Minions - card based dark fantasy warfare
http://www.godsandminions.com
http://www.facebook.com/godsandminions
http://www.twitter.com/godsandminions

Hello dear Lackey users and readers,
I hope you don't mind if I drop some of the Dev-Diary entries for Gods & Minions into this thread. More information can be found at the project homepage. Enjoy!

Mechanic Explained: The Resource System

While we are busy preparing the final version of the Gods & Minions rulebook (called ?1st Era?), I thought it would be a good idea to introduce you to some game concepts over the course of the next blog entries. Today I would like to explain the Resource system of the game.

Being a classic wargame, the focus of Gods & Minions is less on resource management and more on strategy and tactics. But, being a customizable card game ? a resource system is still required, as players don?t begin with their whole army in play. Instead, the so called escalating resource system grants every player more resources each turn. This allows you to muster just a few cheap minions in the beginning of the game, while it enables the players to bring several stronger troops into play at later turns.


Game Currency
There is only one currency in Gods & Minions, that is called Gold. There are no additional kinds of resources or different types of mana ? just Gold. Gold is required for everything, payment to muster troops as well as bringing equipment, war-machines, monsters and magic spells into play.

Gold Income
The resource system changed over the course of several month?s to what it is today. We finally decided for the simplest of all versions ? because Gods & Minions is a wargame and not about resource management. The core of this system is easily put into words: At the beginning of your turn, you gain Gold equal to the current turn number (up to a maximum of six).


It?s as simple as that! At turn one, you have 1 point of Gold available to spend on cards. While on turn 5 you have 5 points of Gold available and so on. The only important rule is, that your gold income caps out at six points per turn (turn number six or later).

Sidenote: There are no ?mana cards? in Gods & Minions that clutter your deck. There is no ?mulligan? too. As simple as the system might be ? its easiliy remembered, balanced and always fair!

Drawing Cards
You may draw one card from your deck each turn(just like in most other CCG?s), and you can pay one Gold in order to draw more. The difference from other games is, that you can pay to draw as many cards as you like ? there is no limit except your gold reserves. This action may not be used by the player who begins the game.

This makes card drawing a more delicate process, especially in the beginning of the game when resources are sparse. During mid-game it might be a good idea to invest gold in order to get more cards. Later on ? when you have more than enough gold available ? it is not recommended to draw many cards in one turn. You will need your resources to muster the more powerful troops instead!

Discarding Cards
There are no resource cards in Gods & Minions and almost no cards that alter or accelerate your gold income. To balance this fact, there is another optional special rule: You may discard a single card from your hand per turn ? to gain one additional Gold. This action is limited to one card and one point of gold per turn.

Especially during the first turns (even more important: the first turn!), it might be a good idea to discard one of your cards to give you a gold boost. This will enable you to play more powerful or additional cards right away. Later on, when you have enough income ? this mechanic becomes more and more uninteresting and should only be used if you need a lot of gold to muster a very powerful minion, hero or god card.

Sidenote: As mentioned before, there is no ?mulligan? in Gods & Minions. This is true to playing (mustering) cards too. With up to two resources available in your first turn, you will always have the chance to bring cards into play.


Cheers
-Tobias

--
Gods & Minions - card based dark fantasy warfare
http://www.godsandminions.com
http://www.facebook.com/godsandminions
http://www.twitter.com/godsandminions

I like my card stats collected in a single place, or at least close to each other, not all over the place.

I will read the rules later, and comment on it.

Good to see the progress you are making with this.

I really like how you have presented the game here and will be following with interest! It hits several of my strike zones with the fantasy theme and cardless resource system. Sometime in the future I hope to work on my own ideas for a card-based wargame.

I know the card you've shown isn't the final product, but I'll just take the opportunity to offer a few comments anyway. I agree with Dragoon about the layout of the card stats. In my opinion, having some of the stats overlap the illustration has the same visual effect as if they were all overlapping. They would look awesome lined up together with the axe symbol.

The axe symbol and crown symbol look great, but I think you could improve the boot (movement?) symbol by having the heel of the boot raised to suggest a walking motion.

I don't think the effects in the rules text on the card need to be bulleted because you already have the keyword bolded. But if you want to keep the bullets I think the text below each bullet really needs to be indented.

You might think this is overly fussy or you may already be aware, but I'm very conscious about the writing of rules text so I'll just raise the point. For triggered effects or conditional effects, it is generally more logical to state the trigger or condition for the effect first. This allows players to find out whether the effect is relevant immediately or not without having to read the text in full.

Looking forward to seeing more!

Thank you for your answer!

@Dragoon:

ICONS. Yeah the icons are a bit chaotic aligned, the space to the left is reserved for even more icons. I show you later (there can be 4 icons inside the card image at max). its a wargame, not a classic CCG so there are more stats required.

RULES. would absolutely appreciate if you read and check the rules for any logical loopholes! I respect you and your oppinion very much, as you have been helpful in the past years here on the board (your own projects, neutral posts and the community project). I make your oppinion count!

Some stuff we are currently discussing:

1. adding a home card to the reserve zone of every player. attacking of reserves is unlocked if you control 2 terrains, destroying the home card wins the game.
2. putting all cards in the same deck. but i am against it. personally i hate multiply decks in CCGs. but the terrain deck is removed after game start and the god deck is not really a deck - more of a sideboard. i explain the gods later in detail.
3. health tracking. well im for it. i dont care the additional book-keeping. This is a wargame after all!
4. adding additional victory conditions or adding victory points to allow more types of victory (im against, i like the refreshing and simple terrain control approach).

@Typherion:

ICONS. Sure, im open for anything. the template is classified "alpha" BTW. I could align all stats on the left. but the game has many of them (more than shown in the example card). there would be a "line of stats" from top to bottom the card. think this would be ok?

BOOT. haha, yes. this is the godamn third boot im using. and i don't like it. looking for boot number 4!

BULLETS. Either idea is good for me. What do the others say? Bullets yes or no?

TEXT. So the second text would be right? And the first should read: "When fighting maces: Gain +1 melee until end of turn". But im rewording all texts later. I started writing standard sentences for conditions, requirements and the like.

im currently super-busy finishing the final rulebook, quickstart rules, player aid and coordinating the artists...but I appreciate your feedback!

COMBAT
I find it annoying that cards with a strategy rating of a certain type of 0. (Maybe with reducing effects) may not participate in a battle with that rating. So I would suggest changing it to.

"Only cards with a [type] strategy rating can attack during the [type] phase."

Not tested yet, but as far as the rules look, it seems having a lot of armor puts you at a great advantage, no matter the attack ratings. I hope there will never be a card with more than 2 armor.

CARD LAYOUT
I would suggest moving rank up to the title line, and moving armor above movement and under the attack types. Doing this would place all nescessary combat stats together so they could be seen in a single glance. Rank is off less importance for combat, and would thus be better by moving it to top.


OTHER POINTS

Quote from: Malagar on February 19, 2013, 01:36:45 PM
1. adding a home card to the reserve zone of every player. attacking of reserves is unlocked if you control 2 terrains, destroying the home card wins the game.

I am for it, the home card could contain a reference to your faction and turn structure, but is otherwise generic. It shouldn't be able to be attacked, mostly because you want it to remain terrain control game. (Which I like. Also, the home attacking could allow serious griefing.)

Quote from: Malagar on February 19, 2013, 01:36:45 PM
2. putting all cards in the same deck. but i am against it. personally i hate multiply decks in CCGs. but the terrain deck is removed after game start and the god deck is not really a deck - more of a sideboard. i explain the gods later in detail.

Well, the terrain is set up at start, so nobody should care about that. Don't know of the gods, but I think it's smart to keep them apart. Also, there are only 6 cards, so nobody should care much.

Quote from: Malagar on February 19, 2013, 01:36:45 PM
3. health tracking. well im for it. i dont care the additional book-keeping. This is a wargame after all!

Bleed them dry! Only matters on heroes or high-ranked guys. Keep the hp tracking.

Quote from: Malagar on February 19, 2013, 01:36:45 PM
4. adding additional victory conditions or adding victory points to allow more types of victory (im against, i like the refreshing and simple terrain control approach).

Fan of victory points, but they don't work in your approach yet. If you want them, you should have each terrain generate X victory points each turn for the player that controls it.

Additional victory conditions should only be done on cards. Make them sparse and meaningful.

Thats all for now.

COMBAT

I think you got it wrong. But thats my fault actually, even my playtesters got it wrong:

In a battle you fight through all four sequences, so every battle is fought over four rounds - one for each strategy.

you start with missile, then charge, then melee and finally artillery

interpret it as a kind of "initative" rating, where missile is the fastest and artillery the slowest.

players wont field all 4 values in a single combat, so you can usually skip 2-3 phases at all.

EXAMPLE: Imagine you have a archer (missile) and a swordman (melee). During the missile step your archer strikes first and then you skip the charge step (as you dont have any unit with charge strategy). during melee your swordman strikes. finally you also skip the artillery step.

ICONS

good point! will move rank up. to the top right? left is gold, middle is title and right would be rank?

THE REST

thanks for your input! especially backing me up on 2 and 3. im still thinking about 1. regarding 4 - well, i had VPs in an earlier version and it made things artificially more complex. to we trashed it.

thanks!

Ok, I have added some final tweaks to the game rules. Your feedback is once more required:

1. VICTORY CONDITIONS
The change itself is not so big, but it modifies many of the subsystems under the hood:

We switched to victory points instead of instant win. You now gain 1 victory point at the end of your turn, for each terrain card you control. There are some (rare) terrain cards that grant more VPs. You now require 6 VPs to win the game.

* This allows us to add optional victory conditions to the game later.
* As it is not required to control 2 terrains at the same time (like in the earlier version), we had to increase the amount of VPs you have to collect. its just much easier to hold 1 terrain over a series of turns instead of controlling 2 terrain cards at the same time.
* There will be quest cards later on, fulfilling them each grants you additional VP: defeat your opponents hero, defeat your opponents god.

2. HOMELAND / CAPITOL CARDS
We decided against starting cards (like capitols or a nation card), because this is primary a wargame and they are not required. But:

* Your reserves zone is now called homeland, you can move onto your opponents homeland (so we unlocked this zone for battles). this is done by first moving to one of the terrain cards and then moving to the homeland next turn.
* Terrain is also placed on your homeland, battles can take place on your homeland
* finally: There will be buildings and fortifications later on. We are against kingdom-building, but you will be able to bring buildings into play that support your troops or enable you to bring certain types of troops quicker into play. buildings can be attacked and destroyed.
* There will be more quest cards based around buildings that grant VP: destroy X buildings
* there will also be quest cards that deal with your opponents homeland, like: The "Flag" quest card is attached to your hero. move your hero onto your opponents homeland to plant the flag and gain VP.

The rest of the system is quite tested and set in stone. these are the final changes.

Finally: Do you think these changes make sense? Also, do you think they are worth it? Because the game is a tad more complicated now. I hope the additional design space legitimates the changes ?

Super quick update:

* Sorted out most of the points mentioned in my previous post already. Rules Core 99% finished.
* Card template will be updated over the course of the next weeks.
* Core Rules including all background information and lore for the first three tribes will be released in LESS THAN 2 WEEKS.

attached one more card for you to enjoy (still using old template version):

I really like the new victory point win condition. I imagine it opens up some new strategies like controlling one territory while trying to deny your opponent control of the others by throwing away minions to keep them contested.

I'm not sure I understand how battles in the homeland zone will work. Don't units enter play in the homeland zone exhausted? If exhausted units are at a disadvantage in battle is there a risk of one player being locked out of the game?

A significant issue for me is the concept of units. The rulebook mentions that a unit may only march if all the cards in it are ready, but there is no mention of how a player forms cards into a unit. I also find it a bit strange that units can't march but can still attack even if some of the cards in it are exhausted. Is the concept of units really even necessary?

Finally, after reading through your rulebook I have a question about movement and conquering terrain. It seems like cards with a high Maneuver score would be able to march to a terrain without being exhausted and conquer it at the end of the turn without the opposing player being able to do anything. Is this your experience in playtesting?

Thanks for the reply Typherion!

1. Yes, I can second that, - introducing VP was the right decision.
2. Please wait for the new (final) rulebook - we tossed out the homeland battles again after a quick brainstorm and test session. Its not necessary and did not prove to be practical, we also trashed the idea of faction/nation cards and flag planting at homelands - its just too obscure and not really adds that much to the game.
3. No, the unit concept is not required at all. we introduced a new rule that any unit can be lead by any card. its only about "bundling" cards together to sum up their attack values for a single strike. most important: you can only strike once per terrain card. the whole concept of units was only introduced to ensure that players strike once per terrain at max.
4. well, high maneuver is very powerful. but tests showed that only a few cards with maneuver ratings THAT high are played during a single session (we also capped the maximum number of copies per card at 3, you just cannot include 10 cards of the same cavalry in your deck). in reality you mix cards with higher/lower maneuver ratings (high maneuver usually sucks at all other fields). and: the conquer "margin" of terrains is quite high - you will be moving cards to the terrains one-by-one instead of gathering and rushing to a terrain and taking it by storm at once. in fact, we did not experience the situation you describe in our tests so far (but, the core set is not finished yet). We will keep an eye on this!

Thanks! You are always welcome to contribute!

PS: wait for the new rulebook please, too much changed compared to the old one.

EDIT @Typherion: Ok we removed the whole unit idea, its obsolete by now and just produces overhead. thanks for pointing this one out!

Sorry double (triple? quadouble?) post - well, this is my thread after all!

* We are almost ready for the release of our free PDF rulebook
* be prepared for 60+ pages of history, lore, army descriptions and last but not least 10 pages of rules
* in the meantime we would really appreciate if you follow us either on twitter or on facebook:

http://www.facbook.com/godsandminions
https://www.twitter.com/godsandminions

* we are a self-funded indie development group, consisting of 5 people plus various mentors and freelancers from all over the web
* we have no budget, we enjoy neither a investor nor a publisher - this is a real indie project.

Im Tobias (Malagar) and I have been active on these boards since the very beginning, i would really appreciate your support. We dont want your money, we dont want to sell you anything - in fact, we will release the whole project for free. Later on, you will only have to pay if you want to own a physical (printed or software (non PDF)) copy of the project.

Thank you so much!

Rulebook & Worldbook released!

Finally ? the Gods & Minions Rulebook (ca. 30 pages) as well as the Worldbook (another 30 pages) have been released! The Rulebook contains are all the rules required to learn and play Gods & Minions. The Worldbook on the other hand contains the whole History of Ascendallion, the background story of the game and description of the first three tribes.

Yes I know, I am about five days early with the release ? but the content is ready and it does not make sense to hold back stuff at this stage.

If you want to become acquainted to the rules, now is your chance! Please go ahead and download all of the files, read the rules when you have a bit of spare time. This basis won?t change anymore and is the basis for Gods & Minions ? the card based game of dark fantasy warfare.

Congratulations on the release of your new rulebook and other materials. The presentation is very impressive! Here are some of my random thoughts for you to consider. This feedback will focus mostly on the rulebook.

Rulebook
I love the overall layout and scheme, but I think the document could be improved a lot by some thorough editing.

The section headings would look better without the shadow - it looks like the text is hovering over the scroll rather than imprinted on it.

In several places next to the name of the game you have included the copyright symbol "C". I think you probably meant to use the trademark symbol "TM" because the words of a name cannot be protected by copyright.

I don't think you should mention in the rulebook that a cheating player loses once the cheating is detected. It might actually encourage cheating, as players might think that cheating is an intended part of the game.

In several places Terrain is referred to as a type of card and in other places as a card zone. Maybe you could just call the zone where Terrain cards are placed the Battlefield?

There are many instances thoughout the rulebook where apostrophes should be used or shouldn't have been used. The possessive "its" does not have an apostrophe but other possessive words do use one. (Eg: Each army has its strengths and weaknesses. This card's attack score is high.) 

There are also many places where commas have been used but aren't needed. Removing them can make the text smoother to read.

I noticed several places where "an" should be used instead of "a". You should use "an" before words that start with a vowel and sometimes before words starting with "h". (Eg: "an historic event".)

The Game
I see the resource system has now changed to be more like the system in WoW.

I'm wondering if players will simply avoid using Relics completely because they will be dead cards without a Hero to use them.

Thank you for your feedback Typherion

My former university professor is still proof-reading this thing. I hope to get most errors sorted out once he is finished. In the meantime, i will try to correct the things you pointed out.

please note that english is not my mother language.

I dont have a trademark for this project (and dont plan to get one), but you are allowed to use (c) to show the minimum protection of intellectual properity. the (c) was not meant to protect the name, rather the whole project. maybe i move it to another place.

The resource system is really simple, but it "just works" - that was our main goal. not innovative - but works.

regarding relics: well there will be a few usable by minions too, but this does not solve your point. We got the idea from "Legend of the five rings" and "Warlords CCG" where you can attach items to your heroes - but not all cards are heroes. further playtesting will show this. Im currently busy coordinating art and planning the core set.

thanks again, if you find more - just post it here. ill gather the info and update the document next week

L5R solves that issue by having a deck with seperate from the deck with attachments.

A good idea would be having the relic cards already in play, but need to be 'unearthed'  by either fulfilling some condition or by spending gold. (An example would be that all relics start in play on locations and a hero need to move there and exhaust in order to pick it up.  In the same way, relics from slain heroes will lay on locations where the hero has been slain. Enemies can't pick up your relics)

Quote from: Malagar on March 11, 2013, 01:39:03 AM
My former university professor is still proof-reading this thing. I hope to get most errors sorted out once he is finished. In the meantime, i will try to correct the things you pointed out.

please note that english is not my mother language.

I dont have a trademark for this project (and dont plan to get one), but you are allowed to use (c) to show the minimum protection of intellectual properity. the (c) was not meant to protect the name, rather the whole project. maybe i move it to another place.

Ok, I was aware that English wasn't your native language but I thought the document had already finished the editing stage because of the credits.

You don't have to register a mark for it to be a trademark. Simply using a mark in business can be enough for it to be a trademark. You are allowed to use "TM" to indicate this, but only owners of registered trademarks can use the "(R)" symbol. Registration provides the right to use the mark and prevent others from using it. But prior users of a trademark can't usually be prevented from continuing to use it just because someone else registers it later.

Disclaimer: I am not your lawyer and this isn't legal advice etc, etc.

Looking forward to seeing more of this game.

QuoteOk, I was aware that English wasn't your native language but I thought the document had already finished the editing stage because of the credits.

Haha, i take this as a compliment! Originally, I wanted to wait until everything is finished but then decided to release it to the public. This was mostly done to have something to show to the people and attract some interested fans and possible-players.

QuoteYou don't have to register a mark for it to be a trademark. Simply using a mark in business can be enough for it to be a trademark. You are allowed to use "TM" to indicate this, but only owners of registered trademarks can use the "(R)" symbol. Registration provides the right to use the mark and prevent others from using it. But prior users of a trademark can't usually be prevented from continuing to use it just because someone else registers it later.

Ah, this sheds some light on the topic. thanks for that.

Im already working on a new version, changes so far:

* removed the cheating info (thanks for that, good point!)
* removed the drop shadow from the titles
* removed the excessive amount of (c) signs on each page (just not necessary).

Once again I recommend our facebook page as there is the most activity and updates. You can also follow us on twitter (but facebook posts just look better).

http://facebook.godsandminions.com
http://twitter.godsandminions.com

Complaints about templates still stand (see earlier post)

Why does the locations have dots before keywords.

Use icons before trait words in text. Makes it more clear on those "Gains +1(M) melee unitl end of turn,"

yeah im workin on it.

please don't reduce the layout to a "dot".

More to come, icons will be replaced, the coin on the upper left will be much cooler. My artist is adding lots of tiny tidbits ATM.

Rules and balancing will also change more in the future.

This will be a full-blown miniature wargame played with card.

quick update: we are upgrading our icon set. but im currently unsure if thats a good idea. compare the icon styles in the attached picture. as "lame" as the simple icons look - they are much better to read then the artistically done versions.

what i learned is that most card game put readability over aesthetics

any feedback on this?

[attachment deleted by admin due to age]

Quote from: Malagar on March 28, 2013, 03:52:55 PM
yeah im workin on it.

please don't reduce the layout to a "dot".

More to come, icons will be replaced, the coin on the upper left will be much cooler. My artist is adding lots of tiny tidbits ATM.

Rules and balancing will also change more in the future.

This will be a full-blown miniature wargame played with card.

But I meant the dot before the text in the text box. Either use dot for all rule texts, or don't use any dots. Be consistent.

Samples are way way better.  I think the new ones have very low red compared to the rest of the card.

@Dragoon. Yes I understand. i meant please dont start nitpicking about such a tiny thing that a dot is. I know that there is still lots of stuff that must be changed on the templates. Its lots of work and takes enormous amounts of time. the previews where done to show off the card art. i did not have a chance to correct all templates yet.

besides that, keep the critque coming - your are always helpful.

@r0cknes. sorry i did not understand that. which ones do yo mean? and why "red"? the last sample posted was not about coloring of the cards. its about the black/white icons in comparison to greyscale ones. thanks for clearing things up.

I meant low resolution.  Stupid phone auto correct. I like the first ones better. The newer ones look like their resolution is too low. The original icons are not the best,  but they are the better option so far. They do seem cartoonish. I am guessing you are not going for that look.

@r0cknes okay thanks.

Attached you find the next iteration of terrain templates. Please give me some feedback folks!

From my POV this will be the final version, as it looks good. Added lots of modifications and as you can see, the template looks good when using images with lots of green (typical for a land card), but also when using other colors. and it looks good in big size as well as in small size. everythings is readable and nicely arranged.

Also notice the cool continent/archipel texture above the title and underneath the textbox.

EDIT: The greenish coloring of the background does not fit every terrain image equally well. the easiest solution would be to turn the background into greyscale, because this removes the clashing colors. i could also soften the green aspect or tint the background textures depending on what terrain is displayed. hmm...

EDIT 2: also think that I will remove that white shadow from the keyword in the middle and turn the text into bold instead.

I will no redo all templates for the game - but like to hear your comments first.

thanks!

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