LackeyCCG

Hey there.

First of all, I want to thank you for developing a program that is so flexible and complete. I don't think there's anything better among the competition. For instance, Cockatrice's interface is way simpler, neater and whatnot, but I can't stay connected to a server for more than 5 minutes.

I have been looking around the forums for discussions about the user interface, because I too find that it's sometimes too overwhelming, and basically, hard to look at. I told a couple of friends to get the program today, and one of them, the first thing he said when he opened the application was, "What the hell am I looking at?" That's pretty much what I thought the first time I opened it, too, to be honest. Nevertheless, I decided to give LackeyCCG a chance, so by reading tutorials and watching videos, I learned my way around the interface. Now, not everybody thinks the way I did, and they may choose to drop it before trying; and sometimes, I really wish they'd stay and play card games with me.

I know that you don't want to sacrifice functionality for a simpler interface, but I still believe that the UI can be simplified without sacrificing functionality. I also know that designing a GUI that is balance as such is a very difficult task to undertake.

Have you ever looked at a program named Calibre? Calibre is an e-book library management application with many features. It's the best of its kind, actually, and it's free. Much of its interface is simplified by the use of buttons, context menus, tabbed windows, etc. Have you considered any of this?

I have included a couple of screenshots along with this post to show you how the Calibre interface looks and works. You can see that there are many things to do in this program, yet it's easy on the eyes and simple enough. That's why I am using it as an example.

http://i.imgur.com/Ft44Y.png

http://i.imgur.com/P7Dy8.png

What do you think?

QuoteIt's the best of its kind, actually, and it's free. Much of its interface is simplified by the use of buttons, context menus, tabbed windows, etc. Have you considered any of this?

I make heavy use of lots of different kinds of interface elements, including all of those.

The main reason that interface looks less complicated is because it is less complicated. There are maybe 20 or so different buttons. Lackey on the other hand, has well over 50. Having little icons for functions is nice, but they take up far too much space. A lot of Lackey's interface is concealed until you need it, and a lot of Lackey's interface can be hidden, like the area to the right of the table can be collapsed.

If you have any specific interface suggestions, let me know.

I don't think just removing interface elements, or making them awkwardly inaccessible is worth it just to seem less daunting to new users. But if you can come up with better ideas about how the interface should work that still lets people do things they can now, please let me know.

What I would like is better video tutorials.

Thanks for the prompt response, Trevor.  :)

I understand what you say, and if I can come up with more specific suggestions, I will definitely let you know.  :) If there's anything I can do to help, I'll do that too.

I think that, for now, I'll make a few skins to share with the community.  :)

I'll just mention that without a doubt the biggest barrier to entry in lackey is the UI.

I've introduced maybe 10-15 people to the program and literally every one of them has needed a guided tour by me to even get a deck loaded. And then a whole 2nd tour to preform basic functions in the game. It's not solved by video tutorial. It's solved by a more intuitive UI.

I will mention, if I may be objective, that you are staunchly defendant of the UI. I want to express to you as a user and someone who promotes your program actively, that it's easily it's biggest weakness. I fully understand the desire for functionality, but you can't objectively say the UI is intuitive. You also can't say it's attractive by any modern standards. I don't say this to criticize your work, I know UI's are time consuming to no end, I program myself. But I don't think your constant dismissal of "the ui is frustrating because" posts is beneficial in the long run.

I'll give a largely abbreviated list of suggestions, again not attempting to provoke, but I think without question this is the most out of date and "in need" part of Lackey:

Some of the 100% critical function to play a game are unnecessarily hidden, especially on first boot.

For example, 0% of players who download lackey want to play war3000. The first prompt a new install gets is it find and download a plugin to use.

Deck loading is needlessly hidden behind a deck builder menu when it makes perfect sense if you are playing with fixed or already built decks to bring "load a deck" to the main play space menu.

You have a bunch of things tabbed to hide them (settings for example), when it makes sense to use a settings dialog (like nearly all programs I can think of), where a setting option from the main menu brings up a settings panel, with a more managed list of settings.

This applies to stuff like the server tab, which for all real reasons could be condensed into something other than a tab.

Why do we have 20 some options in the main menu tab? surely some of those could be nested, broken into other tabs, or hidden all together.

In short, I can't think of any program in which the main window of functionality changes so frequently between actions. I think a smart updated lackey UI would run everything through the main play space. Everything else you need should be handled through dialog windows. The one exception may be deck building, which is inherently complex, but could be laid out much more logically (e.g. why do we have 20 filter lists present at all times, it's wasted screen space, something you talk about frequently).

Trevor, I really want to stress how much I desire to show new people lackey and have them go "wow, that's awesome" instead of "well I can see how it's useful, but damnit it's an ugly duck".

It's a tool I want to use semi professionally for testing my games, and as it stands it's a constant struggle to introduce new players to a play test environment in lackey since it is virtually impossible to just pick up and understand the programs core and necessary functions. I've, as has the OP, become familiar and learned its MO.

If we could sit down and discuss options about a new lackey UI, I think this is easily your biggest opportunity for ROI on the value of lackey.

innuendo, I agree with your assessment of the problem, but I am not convinced what you present as ideas are solutions or ameliorating changes.

The default plugin is a placeholder plugin because Lackey does not come loaded with any plugin. If a player wanted plugin X, and lackey came preloaded with plugin X, ya, it would be more convenient for that player. But for people who want plugin Y, they still need to install it, but if plugin X is already installed things are even more confusing for them. The lackey download would be a lot larger, they would have a bunch of files they wouldn't need, and they would have the additional task of deleting the unwanted plugin, in addition to installing the desired one. Also, I don't promote any specific plugin as an official plugin. People may mostly use plugin X today, but next year, maybe most people will be using Lackey to play plugin Y. I have decided to remain impartial about plugins, and if anyone has a working plugin they want listed, I will add it to the list.

I have tried to make the plugin installation process as easy as it can be, but if you have any specific suggestions of how I can improve things, I will implement them if they will help. I have made a lot of improvements to the interface and things are a lot easier to use than they once were.

You can load a deck a number of ways. Obviously, you can only edit a deck in the deck editor. There are ways to load a deck in the game window. Among others, you can right click a player's avatar in the players stats section and use the right click menu to load a deck. But now that you mention it, I guess it might make things more intuitive if people can select an option in the main menu to "Browse deck to load". If people think that additional method of loading a deck would be more intuitive, I can easily add that.

QuoteYou have a bunch of things tabbed to hide them (settings for example), when it makes sense to use a settings dialog (like nearly all programs I can think of), where a setting option from the main menu brings up a settings panel, with a more managed list of settings.

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be complaining that I use a Preferences panel tab for settings instead of an option from a main menu. Well, I do have an option in the main menu called "Edit Preferences...". So it seems like your only complaint would be that I also have it as a tab, visible always. Well, there isn't any wasted space having it as a tab in addition to the other tabs. I need tabs for the Game, Deck Editor, and Server, and an additional tab for Preferences appears where otherwise there would be nothing. And I think people do click the preferences tab frequently to change their preferences. Yes, they could select "Edit Preferences..." in the main menu which does the same thing as clicking the preferences tab, but I think practically everyone would rather click a tab rather than navigate a menu, or at least have the option to do either.
I think having the Preferences tab visible only serves to make the interface more intuitive. I know it is one more thing adding to the plethora of buttons and GUI elements, but I think its usefulness and intuitiveness offsets that slight increase in interface complexity.
Do you disagree with any of that?

I could have the server not as a tab, but I think that would be worse. The server tab is something you always want to be able to see, to tell you if you are connected to the server, how many people are there, if there are server messages you haven't seen, and other info. So if I don't have a server tab to display that, I would have what? I think a tab is intuitive, allows a place for that information to be displayed, and I think people understand that clicking on the server tab shows the server related stuff. If people want to see that, they know where to click. I am open to ideas for GUI improvements, but something along the lines of "just hide it in a menu" I think makes things less intuitive, and not more.

QuoteWhy do we have 20 some options in the main menu tab? surely some of those could be nested, broken into other tabs, or hidden all together.

I thought you were just arguing that more things should be added to the main menu?
What specifically do you think should be "nested, broken into other tabs, or hidden altogether"?
In general, a lot of nesting makes interfaces less intuitive because things are hidden and it isn't always apparent what parent group something would belong to. For example, is loading a deck to a game in the "game" parent group or the "deck" parent group? And even if nesting things didn't have a tendency to obfuscate, it's a pain for people to be navigating menus and submenus and submenus whenever they want to do something. Especially so, if its a frequent action.

I know the deck editor with its 20 filters is not the most elegant solution. I could have all of the filters hidden, and force people to add them one at a time, but I think rather than always adding a filter by defining every parameter every time, that it's a lot quicker to just pick the filter that already exists with all but the text entry part all ready. The filters section of the deck editor does take a decent amount of space, but it isn't space that would be used for any other purpose. Furthermore, people who want multiple filters will need this space eventually, and I think it would be worse to have them either run out of space or have the window arrangement somehow change to accommodate for the increased demand of space.
Show me some specific ideas about how you would improve it, preferably with a screenshot/drawing. I acknowledge imperfections, but the current way is the best method I have thought of so far.

I think the major aspect of the game window that overwhelms people is there are 3 rows of buttons. There is the Table view buttons above the table, the General and Card function buttons below the table, and the log canned message buttons above the log. First off, I want to remind you that the function buttons below the table are completely optional and redundant. All general and card functions can be performed either by right click menus, the 2 menu pulldowns above the table, or even by key bound hot keys, among other methods. The function buttons below the table are visible if the plugin maker deemed them frequently used enough to warrant having them be made into buttons below the table. If you want the general and function buttons to be removed from that area, tell the plugin maker. Do you think they should be?
Now that I think about it, I suppose having the General and Card function menus (at the top left of the table) is redundant and I think I will remove them. Not only are they redundant, but in retrospect, they have nothing to do with the other table view related functions. I'll make a separate thread about those with a poll to see if people think I should remove them.

Regarding the table view interface elements, it is important for people to always be able to see that sort of info. I don't know of any better way than a strip of related GUI elements like I have them now. If you have a better idea, let me know.

The chat log canned message buttons I think are a little confusing to new players, and I think this is because they aren't necessarily familiar with the concept of canned message buttons. I think it would possibly help if I somehow labeled things in a better way, but I don't really know what would be an improvement. Would you suggest I remove the current label "Log" from there and instead insert some different label? What label?

The myriad of tabs for player zones I think adds a lot of complexity to the interface, but I think it also adds a lot of power to the interface. I haven't heard any suggestions for improving them, but I am open to hear ideas and seeing mockups of those ideas.

I am always open to suggestions, but I can rarely act on any suggestions that aren't specific. I am available to speak with most times on AIM, Facebook, Skype, through email, or through forum posts.

BTW, here is that poll: http://www.lackeyccg.com/forum/index.php?topic=1499.0

How about a "Setup Wizard" and/or "Program Tips" dialog showing up for first-time users, to begin with? From that initial dialog, you could introduce them to the concept of plugins and offer to download another from the plugin list, maybe modify some settings too. Cockatrice does something like this, telling the user where to begin the first time the application is loaded.

I think that could be a good place to start.

Then, there is something I've wondered before. Why this bar here (see attachment) at the top (I keep forgetting its name, sorry) is not being used. Most modern programs make use of it, and this helps to save so much space in the main window.

This past Monday, I finally made my boyfriend join me in a session of MTG, but he doesn't want to play again. He found it too complicated. I wanted to teach another friend to play MTG through Lackey, but my boyfriend suggested it wouldn't be a good idea, because of the complexity of the interface. :( This really makes me frustrated. I really like Lackey for what it offers, and like the other poster, would love to be able to spread the word and get overall positive reactions about it, and have them play again. Especially now that I am designing my own game to be played exclusively via Lackey.  ;)

[attachment deleted by admin due to age]

Quote from: Arwym on February 22, 2012, 05:37:41 PM
How about a "Setup Wizard" and/or "Program Tips" dialog showing up for first-time users, to begin with? From that initial dialog, you could introduce them to the concept of plugins and offer to download another from the plugin list, maybe modify some settings too. Cockatrice does something like this, telling the user where to begin the first time the application is loaded.

I think that could be a good place to start.

Then, there is something I've wondered before. Why this bar here (see attachment) at the top (I keep forgetting its name, sorry) is not being used. Most modern programs make use of it, and this helps to save so much space in the main window.

This past Monday, I finally made my boyfriend join me in a session of MTG, but he doesn't want to play again. He found it too complicated. I wanted to teach another friend to play MTG through Lackey, but my boyfriend suggested it wouldn't be a good idea, because of the complexity of the interface. :( This really makes me frustrated. I really like Lackey for what it offers, and like the other poster, would love to be able to spread the word and get overall positive reactions about it, and have them play again. Especially now that I am designing my own game to be played exclusively via Lackey.  ;)

The bar is part of the operating system interface. Many programs use it. Many programs don't use it. I don't use it because it is very operating system dependent, and using it also requires making people not run Lackey in fullscreen mode, which many people do.

A tutorial is definitely something I want to improve and better integrate within Lackey, especially for people who launch Lackey for the first time. I think a pop up for first time users is a good idea. It would probably have to be a link to a webpage or youtube. I would want it to be a video, and it isn't feasible to be distributing the necessarily huge video files along with the program itself.

As far as the complexity of the interface goes... I totally agree that it's a big issue, but no one has presented me with a workable solution.
I want feedback about specifics. What do you and people you have shown Lackey to think is too complicated specifically?
How do you think things can be improved?

I have one idea. I will make the right panel collapsed at initial launch.

For one, I think it's the great amount of little buttons and tabs all over the window. Most of the time, we don't know where to start looking; others, simply feel intimidated by the many options available at first glance. The text looks so small to me: I think that it could be a little bigger, but I know that this would reduce space, so I doubt it can be done at this time. The padding between the buttons' borders and the text inside is very limited in some cases, as well. Some buttons, due to their length, are being cut off, but I suppose that can't be helped when different plugins have different buttons, defined by the plugin authors. I think we could use tooltips to help there. At least on the Mac version, when I mouse over an interface object, I don't get any tooltip text. Tooltips would also help if you ever decide to replace some of the text with little icons (they could be 20x20 or 15x15 pixels in size, which I think is the standard in many programs, like LibreOffice ?although I am not sure of the exact size, they seem to be around that), so when the user places their cursor over the icon, they get a little piece of text, or a name, that describes its function, thus solving the issue.

If you don't want to nest menu options together in the main menu drop down and other areas, perhaps you could use a divider (like an horizontal line) to separate the options in groups of related options. We'd still have all those options appearing immediately, but at least the menu would become easier on the eyes, and also easier to find a particular selection.

As for the filters in the deck editor, and other areas over the interface, for that matter, I think you could make them collapsable. A little arrow at the corner could collapse and expand the filters. I think the same goes for the right panel that you mention. I've noticed many interfaces do this effectively.

If I can come up with mockups or more specific suggestions during the week, I'll post them here.  :)

trevor i'm in the middle of a pc transition (yay new computer) so I don't have my normal suite of tools. This is something I want to work on, so I will put together some mock ups and ideas in full hopefully in the comming weeks.

Quote from: innuendo on February 22, 2012, 09:18:50 PM
trevor i'm in the middle of a pc transition (yay new computer) so I don't have my normal suite of tools. This is something I want to work on, so I will put together some mock ups and ideas in full hopefully in the comming weeks.

Thank you. When designing the interface, remember that things need to be functional above all else. It would be very easy to make the interface look simple and intuitive if you remove a bunch of useful interface elements.
Also, remember that some things that one might do to de-clutter the interface may make certain actions more annoying when used in practice.

I just added 2 collapse buttons for the right area and the table view controls.

When Lackey initially launches, people will see these collapsed.

Here is what things look like collapsed and uncollapsed.

(http://lackeyccg.com/images/newcollapse1.jpg)

(http://lackeyccg.com/images/newcollapse2.jpg)

You think that makes things less confusing to new users?

Sure thing! Looks much friendlier, in my opinion. But I think I will ask my boyfriend and some of my friends who haven't used LackeyCCG what they think. The opinion of existing users would probably help as well.  :)

Quote from: Arwym on February 23, 2012, 09:22:37 AM
Sure thing! Looks much friendlier, in my opinion. But I think I will ask my boyfriend and some of my friends who haven't used LackeyCCG what they think. The opinion of existing users would probably help as well.  :)

The opinion of current users is helpful, but the opinion of people just trying Lackey for the first time are the most helpful. As the designer, I am not good at figuring out what new people find inscrutable about the interface because it all makes sense to me.

That's a nice step for sure.

I think what I mock up will end up being something more "what if we looked at this from the ground up." At the very least it will give us a talking point to move towards something different, and hopefully improved. But again, all in time.

Sincerely, i'm glad we're having these talks.

Update:
When you launch Lackey for the first time, you now see this:

(http://www.lackeyccg.com/images/newstartup.jpg)

Let me know if you have any other suggestions to make things look less confusing for new users.

So, I showed my boyfriend the screenshots, and all he said was: "Yes, it's an improvement, as long as the tutorial is understandable." And, by understandable, he apparently means that the tutorial consists primarily of lots of screenshots and step-by-step, dummy-friendly instructions. *Shrugs.*

I find the current tutorials good enough, in my opinion. I can't say about the videos, though, since I haven't seen them.

Quote from: Arwym on February 25, 2012, 04:14:13 PM
So, I showed my boyfriend the screenshots, and all he said was: "Yes, it's an improvement, as long as the tutorial is understandable." And, by understandable, he apparently means that the tutorial consists primarily of lots of screenshots and step-by-step, dummy-friendly instructions. *Shrugs.*

I find the current tutorials good enough, in my opinion. I can't say about the videos, though, since I haven't seen them.

The tutorials at launch will be a link to to http://lackeyccg.com/gettingstarted.html which itself is going to be redone.

What exactly does he still find to be confusing about the interface?

Well, some ideas.

Quote from: Trevor
What specifically do you think should be "nested, broken into other tabs, or hidden altogether"?
In general, a lot of nesting makes interfaces less intuitive because things are hidden and it isn't always apparent what parent group something would belong to. For example, is loading a deck to a game in the "game" parent group or the "deck" parent group? And even if nesting things didn't have a tendency to obfuscate, it's a pain for people to be navigating menus and submenus and submenus whenever they want to do something. Especially so, if its a frequent action.

I think that it will be a good idea to arrange the main menu.
I've think of making these menus inside the main menu. As you will see I have also made some changes, like adding the "edit deck" option. I've also listed a "view" group, where it can be possible to add options to add/remove parts of the interface. These are just some ideas.

Game
   New
   Save
   Load...
   Load AutoSave1
   Load AutoSave2
Server
   Host
   Join
   Quit game
   Disconnect
Deck   
   Load recent
   Edit
Players
   Add Seat
   Remove Seat
   Spectate
View   
   Fullscreen [ x ]
   Take Screenshot
   Browse Screenshots
Other   
   Hidden play mode [ x ]
   Clear Log
   Clear Table
Preferences

[ x ] means that it's a ticked option.

Quote from: Arwym
If you don't want to nest menu options together in the main menu drop down and other areas, perhaps you could use a divider (like an horizontal line) to separate the options in groups of related options. We'd still have all those options appearing immediately, but at least the menu would become easier on the eyes, and also easier to find a particular selection.

This can also help.

Quote from: Trevor
I know the deck editor with its 20 filters is not the most elegant solution. I could have all of the filters hidden, and force people to add them one at a time, but I think rather than always adding a filter by defining every parameter every time, that it's a lot quicker to just pick the filter that already exists with all but the text entry part all ready.

What if you create a pull down menu to change each filter?. I mean to leave everything as it is, but instead of a fixed filter to change (name, set, etc), you can assign another one by clicking it. Like the pull down menu next to Open recent: (deck). But these pull down menus each having a default value, which should be the same one as the values we now currently have. So if you wish not to change the menu, you will use the filters the same way you did before. This way it will be easier for example to assign many times the same filter (and maybe we will be able to assign the same filter more than the times currently allowed, which will also be an improvement). Tell me if you wish more in-depth explanation on this matter.

Quote from: Trevor
The chat log canned message buttons I think are a little confusing to new players, and I think this is because they aren't necessarily familiar with the concept of canned message buttons. I think it would possibly help if I somehow labeled things in a better way, but I don't really know what would be an improvement.

Yes, they seem not user-friendly because they seem like commands (which they are). If we can rename these, this will help to new users eyes. I mean to assign labels to them. Plugin makers will define the default ones, but then everyone will be able to change them in the preferences as they do now. So in the preferences instead of seeing in the first box '/draw7' we can see '"Draw 7" /draw7', being "Draw 7" the optional label (if no text is included between quotation marks, then no label is included and the canned button in-game will be seen like it is now). But better than this it will be to have 2 boxes for each canned message in preferences. One to set the label, and the other one to set the command. I believe that this can help users be more comfortable with the interface as well as letting them know what the canned buttons contain so as to be able to change them. If commands are colored differently from just messages (Like "Good game") this can also help difference them.

Quote from: Trevor
I just added 2 collapse buttons for the right area and the table view controls.

Yes, they help.

Quote from: Trevor
I am always open to suggestions

Well, here are some of them. I don't like the default skin. That may be something that new users run away from. The problem with this skin I believe that is that all the buttons look the same. I mean, they are all brown and you can't easily tell what is selected. This may confuse users. But what I find is the most annoying is that some buttons are barely readable. I mean, putting the mouse over a tab makes it unreadable, inactive buttons (filters for example) are hard to read. I have been making a skin which I was thinking in sharing when it was finished. I will attach it so you can see what I mean. I'm not telling you that, for example, these are the colors to go. I just want to show the difference when all the buttons are nicely readable and with different colors (then don't have to be so different and end up in such a colorish skin).

Another thing that can be improved can be the "shape" of the buttons and everything. I mean, things can look nicer. And yes, they may spend a little more space, but it can be worth the sacrifice. Please, see these screenshots:
http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/5403772/1/interface?h=4f8a1f#/
Why the first one is the ugliest and the last one the nicest? There are many reasons and I'm no expert at this, but I can see colors, spaces, ticks, shades, separators. I just feel less squares and rectangles in the last image. I know that doing things "nicer" can increase system usage, but may be more user-friendly. No meaning to offense at all, but Lackey may seem something like this operating system (http://www.menuetos.net/0963.png). Yes, it may be very fast and it all enters in some MB, but I just feel that it lacks some colors, some icons, that it is all too square...
I don't mind much how Lackey looks because I know about the great things I can do with this program, but I have to admit that when I first saw Lackey I didn't like much it's interface and this is the thing that can easily make you escape and don't try a program. It is good to have a great functionality, but it is all great to be really simple to use and visually nice at the same time.

Finally, the editor can have some other improvements, like making the bottom buttons smaller, like the "+1" "+3" ones. "Selected +1" does the same as "+1", but they are named differently, which can also confuse users. Also it will be good as it was said before to have a help message when we place the mouse over some buttons. For example, what is "URL", "Paste"?? Yes, I know what they are, but how can a new user know, when the don't even do "anything" (no message appears if nothing is done) when the button is pressed?

Quote from: Arwym
Tooltips would also help if you ever decide to replace some of the text with little icons (they could be 20x20 or 15x15 pixels in size, which I think is the standard in many programs, like LibreOffice ?although I am not sure of the exact size, they seem to be around that), so when the user places their cursor over the icon, they get a little piece of text, or a name, that describes its function, thus solving the issue.

Icons can also help all look nicer and easier to detect. And, as you said Trevor, in the deck editor there is space available to use.

It can also be good in the editor to have some right click functions, like adding +3.

One other thing is to be able to add or remove a card just placing the mouse over it. For example so as to be able to enter some text value, place the mouse over a card and type + to add it, and without doing anything else with the mouse erase the written and change the search value so as to keep on adding cards. Do I make myself clear here?

And lastly, I'd like to be able to use CTRL to change between words in text boxes in the deck editor. I mean to be able to hold CTRL, press backspace and erase the word. I vastly use this but I can't in Lackey. If I try, Lackey recognizes it as a hotkey command ingame and it launches that command.


[attachment deleted by admin due to age]

Quote from: billylee174 on February 26, 2012, 09:08:08 PM
Well, some ideas.

Quote from: Trevor
What specifically do you think should be "nested, broken into other tabs, or hidden altogether"?
In general, a lot of nesting makes interfaces less intuitive because things are hidden and it isn't always apparent what parent group something would belong to. For example, is loading a deck to a game in the "game" parent group or the "deck" parent group? And even if nesting things didn't have a tendency to obfuscate, it's a pain for people to be navigating menus and submenus and submenus whenever they want to do something. Especially so, if its a frequent action.

I think that it will be a good idea to arrange the main menu.
I've think of making these menus inside the main menu. As you will see I have also made some changes, like adding the "edit deck" option. I've also listed a "view" group, where it can be possible to add options to add/remove parts of the interface. These are just some ideas.

Game
   New
   Save
   Load...
   Load AutoSave1
   Load AutoSave2
Server
   Host
   Join
   Quit game
   Disconnect
Deck   
   Load recent
   Edit
Players
   Add Seat
   Remove Seat
   Spectate
View   
   Fullscreen [ x ]
   Take Screenshot
   Browse Screenshots
Other   
   Hidden play mode [ x ]
   Clear Log
   Clear Table
Preferences

[ x ] means that it's a ticked option.

I really think submenus are more annoying than helpful. I just think they can be annoying to navigate. I did try to order the menu options in a logical way, but everyone probably has a different opinion on what is the best order. You put "Host and Join" and such in the server section, which seems odd when you are hosting and joining games when not connected to the server. I will reevaluate the order of the menu items.
I will add the option to load decks directly from the menu menu because I think people expect to do it that way intuitively (despite there being a bunch of different ways to load decks).
I am not sure horizontal rules (or something like it) would actually be an improvement or just more clutter.
One thing you mentioned that I just didn't think of was ticked options in the menu, such as for Hidden play mode. I will add that.

Quote

Quote from: Trevor
I know the deck editor with its 20 filters is not the most elegant solution. I could have all of the filters hidden, and force people to add them one at a time, but I think rather than always adding a filter by defining every parameter every time, that it's a lot quicker to just pick the filter that already exists with all but the text entry part all ready.

What if you create a pull down menu to change each filter?. I mean to leave everything as it is, but instead of a fixed filter to change (name, set, etc), you can assign another one by clicking it. Like the pull down menu next to Open recent: (deck). But these pull down menus each having a default value, which should be the same one as the values we now currently have. So if you wish not to change the menu, you will use the filters the same way you did before. This way it will be easier for example to assign many times the same filter (and maybe we will be able to assign the same filter more than the times currently allowed, which will also be an improvement). Tell me if you wish more in-depth explanation on this matter.

Adding filters one at a time may be more intuitive, but it is also a less fast and more annoying way in my opinion.
And if you want to, you CAN change the filters to all the same value. You could have 20 different filters all of the same kind. It's just that I give people an initial set of filters that are already populated with data so they can just choose the preset filter that is already mostly what they want.
If I want filters for "Type CONTAINS X" and "Faction CONTAINS Y", I need to click 2 buttons (both on buttons) and type 2 values ("X" and "Y"). Compare that baseline with any suggestion you have as a potential improvement. Does your method require more than 2 button clicks? Does it require navigating pulldowns which are more annoying that button clicks?

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Quote from: Trevor
The chat log canned message buttons I think are a little confusing to new players, and I think this is because they aren't necessarily familiar with the concept of canned message buttons. I think it would possibly help if I somehow labeled things in a better way, but I don't really know what would be an improvement.

Yes, they seem not user-friendly because they seem like commands (which they are). If we can rename these, this will help to new users eyes. I mean to assign labels to them. Plugin makers will define the default ones, but then everyone will be able to change them in the preferences as they do now. So in the preferences instead of seeing in the first box '/draw7' we can see '"Draw 7" /draw7', being "Draw 7" the optional label (if no text is included between quotation marks, then no label is included and the canned button in-game will be seen like it is now). But better than this it will be to have 2 boxes for each canned message in preferences. One to set the label, and the other one to set the command. I believe that this can help users be more comfortable with the interface as well as letting them know what the canned buttons contain so as to be able to change them. If commands are colored differently from just messages (Like "Good game") this can also help difference them.

I don't think different colors would help. I think that's more confusing than a uniform setting. It is also an aesthetic nightmare. People can already define labels for functions. I think adding a separate label part of the interface would be more likely to complicate things than to elucidate.
I don't know why I didn't think of it before, but I will apply a similar collapse toggle that I have since added to the right area and table view controls area. That will hide the canned message buttons from people until they deliberately enable them.

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Quote from: Trevor
I just added 2 collapse buttons for the right area and the table view controls.

Yes, they help.

Quote from: Trevor
I am always open to suggestions

Well, here are some of them. I don't like the default skin. That may be something that new users run away from. The problem with this skin I believe that is that all the buttons look the same. I mean, they are all brown and you can't easily tell what is selected. This may confuse users. But what I find is the most annoying is that some buttons are barely readable. I mean, putting the mouse over a tab makes it unreadable, inactive buttons (filters for example) are hard to read. I have been making a skin which I was thinking in sharing when it was finished. I will attach it so you can see what I mean. I'm not telling you that, for example, these are the colors to go. I just want to show the difference when all the buttons are nicely readable and with different colors (then don't have to be so different and end up in such a colorish skin).

I can take another look at the default skin. This is of course a very subjective thing. I am not convinced that your skin is an improvement, but I agree that the mouse over and selected colors of some elements of the current default interface should be tweaked.

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Another thing that can be improved can be the "shape" of the buttons and everything. I mean, things can look nicer. And yes, they may spend a little more space, but it can be worth the sacrifice. Please, see these screenshots:
http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/5403772/1/interface?h=4f8a1f#/
Why the first one is the ugliest and the last one the nicest?

That is not a fair comparison because those interface designs display different kinds of things, and a different amount of information.

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There are many reasons and I'm no expert at this, but I can see colors, spaces, ticks, shades, separators. I just feel less squares and rectangles in the last image. I know that doing things "nicer" can increase system usage, but may be more user-friendly. No meaning to offense at all, but Lackey may seem something like this operating system (http://www.menuetos.net/0963.png). Yes, it may be very fast and it all enters in some MB, but I just feel that it lacks some colors, some icons, that it is all too square...
I don't mind much how Lackey looks because I know about the great things I can do with this program, but I have to admit that when I first saw Lackey I didn't like much it's interface and this is the thing that can easily make you escape and don't try a program. It is good to have a great functionality, but it is all great to be really simple to use and visually nice at the same time.

As far as the interface elements go, I am trying to balance a lot things. The entire interface is rendered by me. I am not using any operating system specific functions so there is a uniform appearance across all operating systems. I have tried making the interface look really slick in the past, and this looked cool on my fast computer, but some people on lesser computers really noticed a degradation in performance. I understand your criticisms and I don't disagree. I have some new ideas that I think will make things look better. I will try implementing them, and I will await additional feedback. Btw, my design was inspired by another multi-operating system independent program called KDX. (http://img.brothersoft.com/screenshots/softimage/h/haxial_kdx-17683-1.jpeg) KDX renders its own GUI.

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Finally, the editor can have some other improvements, like making the bottom buttons smaller, like the "+1" "+3" ones. "Selected +1" does the same as "+1", but they are named differently, which can also confuse users.

Good point. I guess I will make them all "+1" and remove the "Selected" part.

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Also it will be good as it was said before to have a help message when we place the mouse over some buttons. For example, what is "URL", "Paste"?? Yes, I know what they are, but how can a new user know, when the don't even do "anything" (no message appears if nothing is done) when the button is pressed?

That is going to be a lot of work, but I guess I will do that. Some programs (like zbrush) pop up help info when you hold down a key (like control key). Some programs just have pop ups come when you hover over an interface item long enough. I'm not sure which method is better. I think the latter is more the norm.

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Quote from: Arwym
Tooltips would also help if you ever decide to replace some of the text with little icons (they could be 20x20 or 15x15 pixels in size, which I think is the standard in many programs, like LibreOffice ?although I am not sure of the exact size, they seem to be around that), so when the user places their cursor over the icon, they get a little piece of text, or a name, that describes its function, thus solving the issue.

Icons can also help all look nicer and easier to detect. And, as you said Trevor, in the deck editor there is space available to use.

It can also be good in the editor to have some right click functions, like adding +3.

Ya, I agree right click functions seems like one intuitive way to do things.

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One other thing is to be able to add or remove a card just placing the mouse over it. For example so as to be able to enter some text value, place the mouse over a card and type + to add it, and without doing anything else with the mouse erase the written and change the search value so as to keep on adding cards. Do I make myself clear here?

There are an awful lot of different ways to add cards to a deck list. I am not sure if it would be helpful to add a new kind of interface element like you describe.

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And lastly, I'd like to be able to use CTRL to change between words in text boxes in the deck editor. I mean to be able to hold CTRL, press backspace and erase the word. I vastly use this but I can't in Lackey. If I try, Lackey recognizes it as a hotkey command ingame and it launches that command.

I have never used CTRL+backspace to erase a word. Is that an operating system convention of some kind? It doesn't work on mac that way. You can clear a text input field a number of ways, including some typical ways (select all + delete) and some Lackey-only ways (like right clicking text input fields).

Thanks for the suggestions.

Quote from: Trevor on February 27, 2012, 03:56:35 AM
I really think submenus are more annoying than helpful. I just think they can be annoying to navigate.

What about then creating more menus? In this moment there are 5 "tabs" in the upper screen (one is the the main menu but let's count it as a tab).
These can be changed so if someone places the mouse over it, then some options appear. If we just click the tab, it will be selected (as it is now). In order not to create confusion, when someone places the mouse over a tab, an option will appear under it with something like an arrow pointing down. if we click or place the mouse over it, then the options will appear. I'm just giving you an idea. If you believe that this can work, I can elaborate more on this matter and think of the best way to do this.

So, the options can be:

Game                            Actions                        Deck                      Server                      Preferences
  New                              Clear Log                     Load Recent            Diconnect                 Fullscreen [ x ]
  Host                              Clear Table                  Load...       
  Join                               Hidden mode [ x ]         Edit
  Add seat                         Take Screenshot
  Remove seat                   Browse Screenshots
  Spectate
  Save                           
  Load...                       
  Load AutoSave1           
  Load AutoSave2
  Quit

This is just to give an idea. For example the options inside "Actions" can be inside "Game" if it is wanted to have less tabs.

Quote from: Trevor
And if you want to, you CAN change the filters to all the same value.

Oh, I wasn't aware of this! This was the thing I was asking for, to have a pull down menu for each filter. What I now think that may be good is to be able to select the pull down menu if it is inactive, and doing so activating it. It just saves one click if you wish to turn a filter on and change some of its value.

Quote from: Trevor
I don't think different colors would help. I think that's more confusing than a uniform setting. It is also an aesthetic nightmare. People can already define labels for functions. I think adding a separate label part of the interface would be more likely to complicate things than to elucidate.
I don't know why I didn't think of it before, but I will apply a similar collapse toggle that I have since added to the right area and table view controls area. That will hide the canned message buttons from people until they deliberately enable them.

I'm sorry but how can you assign a label to a canned message? I've tried for example /draw7 <label>Draw 7</label> and I couldn't.
Regarding colors, I mean a way to see a "Draw 7" button and be able to tell if it is a command or if it is just a message saying "Draw 7".

Quote from: Trevor
I can take another look at the default skin. This is of course a very subjective thing. I am not convinced that your skin is an improvement, but I agree that the mouse over and selected colors of some elements of the current default interface should be tweaked.

Quote from: Trevor
As far as the interface elements go, I am trying to balance a lot things. The entire interface is rendered by me. I am not using any operating system specific functions so there is a uniform appearance across all operating systems. I have tried making the interface look really slick in the past, and this looked cool on my fast computer, but some people on lesser computers really noticed a degradation in performance. I understand your criticisms and I don't disagree. I have some new ideas that I think will make things look better. I will try implementing them, and I will await additional feedback. Btw, my design was inspired by another multi-operating system independent program called KDX. (http://img.brothersoft.com/screenshots/softimage/h/haxial_kdx-17683-1.jpeg) KDX renders its own GUI.

Quote from: Trevor

Quote from: billylee174
Also it will be good as it was said before to have a help message when we place the mouse over some buttons. For example, what is "URL", "Paste"?? Yes, I know what they are, but how can a new user know, when the don't even do "anything" (no message appears if nothing is done) when the button is pressed?

That is going to be a lot of work, but I guess I will do that. Some programs (like zbrush) pop up help info when you hold down a key (like control key). Some programs just have pop ups come when you hover over an interface item long enough. I'm not sure which method is better. I think the latter is more the norm.

Thank you. It will be much appreciated, specially for new users. Regarding pop up help, hovering over an item is the norm. Using a key I don't believe that is intuitive.

Quote from: Trevor

Quote from: billylee174
And lastly, I'd like to be able to use CTRL to change between words in text boxes in the deck editor. I mean to be able to hold CTRL, press backspace and erase the word. I vastly use this but I can't in Lackey. If I try, Lackey recognizes it as a hotkey command ingame and it launches that command.

I have never used CTRL+backspace to erase a word. Is that an operating system convention of some kind? It doesn't work on mac that way. You can clear a text input field a number of ways, including some typical ways (select all + delete) and some Lackey-only ways (like right clicking text input fields).

Oh I didn't know that you can't do that in Mac. It is possible in Windows and Linux. But now I know that I can use Select all + delete (which is not as nice as just pressing CTRL+delete) and clear every text message with right click (I thought that this was only applicable to the chat box)

I think the idea about the multiple menus is a step in the wrong direction.

You can put a label in a canned message by putting it at the start within exclamation points.
Like !Roll!/roll

I don't think different colors are needed. I think the slash at the start is a pretty clear indicator if something is a function or not.

I can add control+delete if that's something people would expect. I don't think it would interfere with anything, and it would be pretty easy to implement.

Ah, i really need my computer so I can chime in with my full thoughts!

I've never in my life seen or used ctrl+del (2 pence)

Quote from: Trevor on February 27, 2012, 07:10:06 PM
You can put a label in a canned message by putting it at the start within exclamation points.
Like !Roll!/roll

Great! This was nowhere in the tutorials. In the forum I haven't found it either. It is good to know.

Quote from: Trevor
I can add control+delete if that's something people would expect. I don't think it would interfere with anything, and it would be pretty easy to implement.

It can be very nice to be able to use CTRL, but when you do it interferes with assigned hotkeys. If you were to have a CTRL+Backspace command, then inputting this in the deck editor will also trigger the command on the game tab.

Quote from: innuendo
I've never in my life seen or used ctrl+del (2 pence)

I don't know how many people uses this, but it is very useful. Holding CTRL you can move between words (characters like ></? also count as word separators) with the left and right arrow keys. Up and down arrows keys are used to move between paragraphs, though this doesn't work in some cases for example inputting text in a browser. Then you can use CTRL+backspace or CTRL+delete to erase full words.
Note: you can also hold SHIFT so as to select the words while holding CTRL.

Trevor I got my pc put together and started drawing out how I see the application looking, I'm hoping end of week to have something to present (gray and black outline of sorts).

In the meantime, I know you always point us to IM but honestly I haven't had an old style IM client in years (yahoo, aim, etc), you use anything like skype or gchat?

Quote from: innuendo on February 29, 2012, 04:02:51 PM
Trevor I got my pc put together and started drawing out how I see the application looking, I'm hoping end of week to have something to present (gray and black outline of sorts).

In the meantime, I know you always point us to IM but honestly I haven't had an old style IM client in years (yahoo, aim, etc), you use anything like skype or gchat?

I am trevoragnitti on Skype and also Facebook.

I think multiple menus would be a plus, because that's the first thing I turn to when I'm new to a program, just to see what it has to offer. I've seen others do this too.

In regards to functions being different colors, uh, didn't you say something to the effect of "I know what it does so I need a fresh perspective" (earlier in this thread... too lazy to find and quote). Seems like you're getting a fresh looks on it that I happen to agree with, and disregarding it because you find it obvious.

I had a possible epiphany when reading through this thread. Do you think the crazy amount of little buttons and things on screen when you open lackey is what causes it to run slowly on nicer machines? I've used Lackey on countless different systems, new and old, and even with a brand new computer I still get some lag between highlighting a button and actually being able to click it. I doubt its related, but cleaning up the interface maaaaay help?

Other random thoughts:
Why not group chat messages into a single button, with the option to expand somewhere in preferences? So that whole row of random looking stuff would just say Quick Chat --> and then you click on it and BLAM-O a billion quick chat options.
Same could be done with the command buttons as well really. A Game Action button perhaps? It'd be essentially just like right clicking, but you could expand it in preferences. Thus, new players don't open the program and see a bunch of tiny buttons, they just see a couple. I think when someone who's new to something is first presented said thing, their first inclination is to click around. Lackey, as it sits, stifles that because there's just too much to click on, even if the new user should be able to quickly tell that they don't need those buttons til they're in game.

By shifting this stuff around you could maybe possibly pleeeaaassseee increase the text size just like 2 points? Maybe you have a giant monitor or something (or just better eyesight) but the size of the text not only screams "OLD LOOKING PROGRAM" (in all capitals, no less) but is very friggin hard to read.

I think the deck editor needs a complete overall to not look like such a mess, but I'm not sure what it is...maybe icons? I think they'd make more sense here than in the game view. Remember that efficiency doesn't have to be your number one priority here. People spend hours making decks anyway, a few extra clicks isn't going to kill them, and if they're net-decking then they should just import it. Plus saving a few clicks here and there is definitely not worth all the time spent not using the program because you find it too difficult in the first place.

Maybe just read your card design tutorial over and over again! Haha, a lot of the suggestions being made seem like things you've told me in the past about card design! In all seriousness though, I know you've already got a lot of work with the actual skeleton of this bad boy, and that you earn an astounding $0 yearly from this time consuming project, so, don't let these long ass suggestion threads get you down, your program still rules!!!!

It is time for the first of my "long replies filled with pictures"

Lets start with sharing the gallary I put up on google+ (yes I use google+): Images (https://plus.google.com/photos/113507945897625443720/albums/5714980680695574225)

Now that you have that we can start talking about what i'm trying to accomplish here. I will preface all of this with this: This is a layout, not a UI. I'm hoping to express how I think things should be arranged and function, not specifically how they should look once implemented. All scaling and text sizes are largely non precise, for instance, the chat text i left a little large. Also, i'm not changing everything. Instead, what i'm hoping to do is bring the most needed and common functions forward, and provide labels and names for the ten thousand buttons on the display, to hopefully group then logically.

That said, let's discuss.

Main Game Display (https://plus.google.com/photos/113507945897625443720/albums/5714980680695574225/5714980704431483842l)

Lets start with the tan color panel that wraps the left and bottom. This i'm referring to as the "permanent panel" since it's always visible.

You'll notice right away a few changes, First is elevating the game and deck editor "tabs" seen in old lackey into two large buttons, these are without a doubt the most used pages of the program, they should be clearly marked out.

The player display panel is largely the same, With the addition of collapsible panels for each player so you can shrink them if you don't care to see their stats. I also put a spectator in there just for kicks.

To the left is the now fixed chat pane, split into chat tabs (think like some IM programs do). The game tab is always displayed, this is exactly the same as the log you typically see. The server tab is only visible why you are connected to the server, and shows all the chat there. The tab named "guy" is a whisper tab, which is opened when you /whisper or chat them through the server menu. You'll see this later, but it's important to note this chat pane is now always visible in the program. Since it shows all the current chat there is no reason it to hide. This functionality lets you chat the server while you play a game, or chat anywhere while you build decks.

You'll also notice the program should auto detect which canned messages are functions (presence of a ! or / in the front) and pushes them off to the right.  The labels before each section will make it much easier for new players to know what is going on. The Log functions leave a / or a ! in the front to indicate game or plugin defined. Quick chat options are easily labeled now. I will say, we might need to reduce the number you can have, and that is not a loss in my eyes. I can't think of a single plugin i've ever used more than 5 or 6, and that is even my own plugins.

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Now briefly the top menu bar. The main menu is largely what it is now, I think we can discuss paring it down a bit, but that's not critical to what I hope to accomplish.

The server game button brings up what will look like the top half of the server tab we're used to now. The idea here you don't need the chat (it's on the bottom), so all the server button at the top does is let you browse the players in the server and the open games. Basically exactly the top section of the current server tab. This should display in a popup dialog or other window.

Display options is a nested view of the current zoom/scale/tilt type functions. Once a player sets these they are rarely changed, so having them take dedicated screen space is silly. See this image (https://plus.google.com/photos/113507945897625443720/albums/5714980680695574225/5714980683490145826) for an example of the display menu popped up. (this is also how the server menu should pop up, for reference).

Preferences does what it does now, but does it through a pop up window. Trevor, I know you use skype, it should look like the "options..." interface in skype. Where the sections are broken down on the left and the settings for each section are on the right. I didn't include a shot of that because it's pretty obvious.

To the far right of that bar you'll see the current plugin, which is nice because currently you can't see that in lackey without digging in menus. 2nd, it provides a little clickable button that should bring up a "load plugin" interface. I will note that button shouldn't offer stuff like update from url, you can get that all from the preferences option like you do currently. Perhaps the "plugin menu" button from the UI will have a "find new plugins" option that takes you to the preferences window where you can do what we do currently, update from url, etc.

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Next is the green backed area, this is the active current display, since this view has the "game" button selected on the left, the green zone of the display is the game panel.

Starting at the bottom, the card zone display is exactly what we have now, tabbed sections for each card zone. The "player" off to the right there with a small arrow is to change which player's zones you see. clicking the arrow will put a little context menu there letting you select which player you want to see.

The right panel I have nothing in is the same panel as that, just vertical. You can hide and show it through an option in the "display options" menu at the top. When hidden, all the zones are expanded to fill that space.

The actions bar is all the current game functions we have now, but named so players know what the hell they are for.

The playmat is the same as before.

Deck Editor Card Pool (https://plus.google.com/photos/113507945897625443720/albums/5714980680695574225/5714980685434849954)

So clicking "deck editor" in the left panel there changes the green section of the display into the deck editor pane. This is what happens now, but instead of covering up the whole screen, only the green zone is changed. Again, this crucially lets players see the chat at all times, as well as player profiles.

Starting at the top, the deck editor menu is just a small restructuring of the current menu.

Beneath that you see tabbed panes for each super zone. Off to the far right you see a tab for deck info. This overlays the top section of the deck with the current deck meta info field you can get in current lackey.

Beneath the deck view half there are 2 action bars.

The top one is has the add and remove buttons, which add or remove whichever card you have selected (from either the top or bottom displays). No reason for 2 sets of buttons when one can do both. To the right is the load to zone buttons, labeled and hopefully more stand out-ish so that new players can quickly see how to get their deck to the game.

The bar directly beneath that is the Card pool manipulators. You'll notice I tabbed the card pool. Let me explain how this works. When you open the deck editor you just have the "pool" shown. This is all cards in the plugin. This tab can not be closed. The other tabs are opened up by hitting "new filter" or "open pack". When you do that a new tab is opened up allowing players to switch between different sets of filters, or switch between packs and the total pool, freely, without having to rebuild settings. This is a much more logical way to sort the card pool.

Now the quick search field at the right of the bar searching only the currently open card pool tab. So you can narrow down inside a search. Say you filter by type and then want to quickly sub filter that, use this box.

Now to show what I have in mind for the filter panel, see here (https://plus.google.com/photos/113507945897625443720/albums/5714980680695574225/5714980686853462226).

You get 4 filters. Which means at any one time you can filter on 4 different card fields (which should be more than enough). The real addition here is the and/or drop downs. So if you want to search for all cards of type "creature" and "goblin" you can do that, but if you want all creatures or goblins you can do that now as well.

All four rows of filters are "and" together to produce the filtered list at the bottom. Navigating away from the filter tab doesn't reset the filter though, it holds the settings for the filter until you hit the red x to close that card pool tab.

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I think that does it, it's pretty self explanatory I think what i'm trying to do. I still think Trevor the "new install" pop up is great. Let me know what you think, i'm glad to discuss why I think this UI would be infinitely more inviting to new users, and also have some added tools for current users. And I didn't reinvent the wheel, by and large things are in the same place they are now, but they are more clearly labeled and sorted, and they are sectioned off according to when you need to see them.

The biggest three changes:

• The reduction of "tabs" in the program to 2 (game and deck editor)
• The always visible "tan" bar in the images so that chat and player profiles are always seen
• Restructuring of the card pool display

okay, gotta go for now. Enjoy.

o.O  So much discussion around here! I'm in love with the mockups. Many great suggestions have been made. Thanks! I can't wait to see what comes of this.  :)

Regarding the idea of having a permanent area (with things such as card images and chat logs), this is something I had considered in the past. I decided against it for a number or reasons. In many modes, it just doesn't make sense to show something. Like when browsing games on the server, card images and player stats don't make sense to show. I know occasionally people will be making a deck, and talking to someone while they do it, but this is not typical, and the cost of keeping chat visible all the time is either using up valuable real estate always showing the game chat, or a more complicated interface that allows the game chat to be situationally hidden. After considering all of the possibilities, I think the way I have it now, where you see different panels (game, deck editor, server, preferences) is the simplest option that gives people the best balance of useful information for what they are trying to do. One possible thing I could do is, while in the deck editor window, when incoming chat comes in, display it with a pop up that automatically hides after a few seconds. I'm not even sure that would be worth it. You can at least see (and even hear) if game chat has been received. And often times that is spoken through sound files, and if you are on a mac, all of the text can be spoken no matter what. And you can always voice chat in another program.
I just don't think there is enough crossover in utility to keep all of those items in your tan part visible all the time.
It's an interesting idea, and I'm glad you brought it up because it made me reevaluate the decisions I had made in the past, which in many cases I change my mind about.

Regarding the game window:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zetoVh-qfqA/T0-wpwGmNiI/AAAAAAAAAYs/rexT0QLrcxM/s732/Lackey+UI+-+Display+Options.jpg)
I don't see turn phase buttons. The interface does seem less complicated, but I think that is largely due to the fact that you don't show a lot of information, like tab visibility information for example. Also, just making tabs and fonts a lot larger is not a great solution. Some plugins use up to 20 game zone tabs, and with the current model, there wouldn't be any space for anything besides tabs if you displayed them like that. I do like how you made them visually more clearly tabs, specifically how the base of the active tab is clearly showing what is active. I will tinker with the visual appearance of that tabs with that in mind.

I don't like how much real estate you devote to the huge Game and Deck Editor buttons. That is a large chunk of prime real estate (top left corner) and also this could look especially odd with plugins that have small or very large card images. Remember that when designing the interface, you need to think about how many different kinds of plugins will look. Some plugins don't even use the deck editor, so that would be bad to use such a large chunk of the window like that.

On the top row you have display options, Plugin menu, AND preferences. I think stuff is all under the general "Preferences" umbrella. Options and Preferences are interchangable, so it seems confusing where to go to change things. I know you encapsulated the current table view controls in display options, but I don't think that is clear. Perhaps you didn't hear about the latest changes, but in the unreleased Lackey, the table view controls are hidden by default and can be toggled to be displayed. How you have them, you don't have the option to keep them visible all the time, which is really annoying if you want to see things like zoom and scale all the time.

You separated Quick Chat with log functions. I don't think that works well because some times people use no log functions, sometimes people use a lot of log functions. It varies greatly based on the plugin. In your diagram, you only show 3 of each, which is an unrealistically small amount. I think if you show a more realistic number, you will find that they will run into each other, and the distinction between them will be nothing but a restriction. Sometimes people will want to have them intermixed. Sometimes a log message will be both a chat message and a function associated with it and it would be unclear where that sort of thing should be place. In any case, you are trying to sort them, when I think this is something the user expects to be able to sort. In the unreleased version of lackey, the canned message buttons are hidden at initial launch and can be toggled on or off as a user desires.

Regarding the deck editor interface suggestions:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-792-x1Xddq8/T0-wp3WQCqI/AAAAAAAAAY0/75SOK4U82uA/s732/Lackey+UI+-+Deck+Editor+Panel.jpg)

While you could make an argument for the usefulness of the chat always being visible, I think you could not make a good argument that the player stats section of the window is always visible.

Your interface looks simpler, but I think this is again largely due to you omitting a lot of useful controls, such as the "View Tiled" buttons, or the "Combine reprints" button, or the "ignoring doubles" button. Some previously confusing buttons that you omit (like URL and Paste) will be far less confusing in the unreleased lackey because it has tooltips for all of them that will remove that confusion.
The new selected +1 buttons are a lot smaller and now just say +1, +10, -1, etc. I think it is helpful to have them for both the top and bottom panel because if they were just in one, it wouldn't be clear that they affect the other. If they were in some middle zone, I think that also wouldn't be as good because an additional subpanel would be confusing.

I like how you have more white space. I like how you have a tab for the card pool VS the list of all cards. Right now, I have those as buttons, but the functionality really matches the tab paradigm better. I will make changes with those ideas in mind. I am not sure if a tab is appropriate for the deck info. I think that implies it is another deck zone, which is confusing.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-oxyo-HrNn2g/T0-wp8oeWNI/AAAAAAAAAYw/1vDB0UXmxkA/s732/Lackey+UI+-+Deck+Editor+Panel+-+Filter.jpg)
I don't like the new way you suggest filters should work. I think that it would be really annoying to use a system like that where you are limited to a small amount of filters that you need to constantly update. It also doesn't provide the A AND (B OR C) functionality that I think you were intending with the AND buttons. It would in some cases, but not all. I think the proper boolean search field that was suggested is the best solution.

I admit the way the filters are now is not ideal, but it is the most useful interface design I have seen. One great thing about the filter design currently in place is there are a bunch of filters all ready made for you with almost all the information all ready for you; everything except the text input you are searching for.
In your design, you would select the pulldown and select "Type". In my design, you just click on the filter the already has "Type". With your design, (with a single filter tab) you can't keep a bunch of filters you previously made still setup but inactive, so that makes it annoying when you go from making one aspect of the deck, to a different aspect of the deck, and then back again to the previous aspect. With multiple filter tabs, I think things start to be confusing and unwieldy. When do players make a new filter tab? If it is automatic, I think their intent couldn't possibly be predicted well enough. If it was manual, I think people would tend not to use it like that. I think people would be more inclined to just tweak a previous filter than make a new one, which in practice negates the multiple filter design. With my model, I don't think people are inclined to do that because you can see all the options at once, and turn various filters on and off, and save them all for possible use later. While a novel concept, I think your multiple filter tabs would be clumsy in practice.

The amount of space allotted for the lists of cards is far smaller in your design. With enough filters, it shrinks. When people have resized the game chat log to be larger (something that would be appropriate for the game window), if that is preserved through to the deck editor, the space yet again shrinks.
I agree that there needs to be more white space in the deck editor, and the game chat and filters you have work against that design philosophy. It is very useful to see a lot of cards displayed at once. With the full card list, that's really its main purpose. Any changes I make need to not sacrifice the amount of cards people can see in the card list.

I'm going to make 2 tabs. One will be card "Card Pool & Packs" and that will show the packs interface. The other will be called something like "All cards" or "Library". Anyone have a better idea, or a preference? It is the list of all cards, which can be filtered, but it is not based on an additive model like the card pool is.

Quote from: Cyrus on February 29, 2012, 07:09:12 PMI had a possible epiphany when reading through this thread. Do you think the crazy amount of little buttons and things on screen when you open lackey is what causes it to run slowly on nicer machines? I've used Lackey on countless different systems, new and old, and even with a brand new computer I still get some lag between highlighting a button and actually being able to click it. I doubt its related, but cleaning up the interface maaaaay help?

I don't think large amount of buttons are likely to be the cause of lag. I think the lag is due to either improperly configured graphics settings (such as your opengl drivers), or inappropriate performance preferences. I could test and give you a version of lackey with no buttons, and I think you'd find the same results. What can be a major source of lag is large images, such as a high res desktop image. I suggest you go to the Appearance preferences tab and try the Low preset (and then relaunch for good measure). If that improves things, it gives you a good idea about the source of the lag.

QuoteBy shifting this stuff around you could maybe possibly pleeeaaassseee increase the text size just like 2 points? Maybe you have a giant monitor or something (or just better eyesight) but the size of the text not only screams "OLD LOOKING PROGRAM" (in all capitals, no less) but is very friggin hard to read.

You can freely increase the size of text in the game log, server log, and library and deck lists. If I allow people to increase the size of buttons, that would have a cascade effect and suddenly there would be far less space for everything else. I could make all the buttons just have icons, which is what many programs do, but I think text (albeit small) is more clear than an icon. And tons of icons might degrade graphical performance.

I'll be brief for now since I don't want to just get into a point by point on the design, we're bound to disagree and sidetrack the conversation.

I think it's a philosophy thing. Please don't overvalue "space" compared usability and consistency of function. Having an always on log panel makes sense since you can have lackey always talking to the user through that. You can see server chat without a server panel, you can whisper from the same space as the general chat.

You're right, it does "shrink the space" for the deck editor, but frankly that increase is "wow, this makes sense" is well worth the loss of 10 displayed cards from the card pool.

I'm willing to concede is people disagree, but I just think having a consistent anchor makes sense, and is far more valuable than marginally increased screen real estate.

Briefly on making the game and deck editor large. That's highly on purpose because current new users *never* find them on the their own. They are bar none the most important two "tabs" of the display and they are nested next to comparatively unimportant tabs. Or at least tabs that aren't toggled between near as often.

This program is about playing games, yet it gives equal importance in the ui to the preferences tab as the main tabletop display and deck editor? That doesn't make sense.

The goal in the design I did was to consolidate down to 2 tabs that are toggled. Put commonly used by sometimes hidden features like chat and the plugin menu in a permanent, always visible home. Then throw everything else in a menu because it just doesn't get used that often.

Also, you mentioned int he deck editor "when does a new filter get opened up", it's when they hit the "new filter" button. :)

Thanks for the thoughts and review. I think this is best done with more opinions involved however.

Quote from: innuendo on March 04, 2012, 01:12:48 PMHaving an always on log panel makes sense since you can have lackey always talking to the user through that. You can see server chat without a server panel, you can whisper from the same space as the general chat.

If a person wants a large amount of space for the log while playing a game, with your design, you force them to have the same amount of space for this region no matter what a person is doing. In my opinion, that's a deal breaker right there. Constantly resizing the window is not a feasible option. Having too little space for some tasks and too much space for other tasks seems inextricably tied to the unified chat design.

And to see server chat, you still need to click the server chat tab. That's really no different than clicking on the server tab at the top of the screen. I think it is a novel idea to have whisper windows, but I think it would be ultimately more useful to have everything compiled into a single window. Right now, whispers are sent to both the server and chat tabs. I could make whisper tabs, but I don't think that functionality is worth the increased complexity of the interface as well as the increased amount of space that it would require. It's an interesting idea though and I will give it some thought, but I also need to think about the bigger picture and how all things go together, what people want and use and readily understand, and many other complications that can arise from what can seem like a small change.

If it is generally the consensus that the game, deck editor, server, and preferences tabs are not pronounced enough, I can change them. I will be redesigning tabs, and you may change your mind when you see the new design implemented. I disagree with your opinion about the server and preferences tab are not worthy of being tabs. I think all things you do in lackey can naturally fall under one of those 4 tabs, and I think how I have the tabs now is logical and intuitive. That isn't to say I think the overall interface is as intuitive it can be, but I think the tabs model in place now is the best choice.

QuoteAlso, you mentioned int he deck editor "when does a new filter get opened up", it's when they hit the "new filter" button.

I think little manually done things like that quickly add up. Making (and deleting) and navigating, and comparing multiple different "filter groups" is unneeded complexity. And the objective measure of "how many clicks something takes" makes the current model superior to the model you presented. I am sure there is a better solution to the current way, but I don't think it's the one you mentioned.

I mostly agree with Trevor.

I prefer not to have chat available at all times, at least on the deck editor. And if it is necessary for some players, maybe having that bar hidden by default, and to be able to make it appear. Also it doesn't have to be the same size as the chat bar when ingame. Anyway, I wouldn't make it appear but maybe someone will?

I also wouldn't like to see player stats at all times when not ingame, why should I?

I don't like the two huge buttons for game and deck editor. This is because of the space they use. The card preview will look considerably smaller, and it takes space for anything else, when these buttons are not needed when ingame.

Considering tabs proposal, I will remain neutral.

I like that I see no scroll bars in innuendo's proposal. That can save some space, let us see bigger card images and make interface less complicated. But these bars should appear when they are needed.

That is all I have to say for now.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zetoVh-qfqA/T0-wpwGmNiI/AAAAAAAAAYs/rexT0QLrcxM/s1398/Lackey+UI+-+Display+Options.jpg)
Oh, I didn't notice the lack of scroll bars on things like the game log and game zone viewer. I am actually not sure if that was intentional or if it was an oversight. In any case, scroll bars are definitely needed for those kinds of things. Also, for the deck editor lists.
I am not sure if innuendo meant for them to be conditionally hidden (and under what conditions). I don't like the idea of them being hidden ever. It's not typical scroll bar behavior, and I think it would be weird if they would come and go. They take up space, so either the space they appear in would be oddly empty when the scroll bars are hidden, or even worse, the amount of space allocated to the object to be scrolled would have to change. Both I think are far worse than the the standard way of showing scroll bars, and when nothing is able to be scrolled, just show them as inactive.

it wasn't an oversight. The images I put up were not meant to be a final UI, I was showing a layout diagram.

There are some things I really liked about Innuendo's version:

- Chat always on. At the most basic, I often deck build while I'm waiting with a game open. Sometimes I can hear the beeps and/or see the room contents change but chat would be much more obvious. Not to mention the possiblities of actually having deck building conversations without having to constantly switch windows. Or being able to make small talk while you build your sealed deck.
- Similarly, being able to switch between chat views without changing the screens.
- Private chat in its own window would be fun but would have to be limited. But useful for tournaments or drafts (for instance).

The 'obvious' place to put it, for me, is on the left under the preview. Unfortunately that presents its own problems due to available space and wrapping; although long comments are unusual. The pluses are that only one screen uses it for anything at the moment.

--
If you were to change the filters, Innuendo's idea is the way I would want them. I am frequently juggling between different filters; being able to just flick back and forth is amazing. If you could give the plugin-maker a way to specify which columns were listed by default I think it would be viable.

--
Game/Deck Editor buttons.
I entirely see the logic but actually it's not so straight forward. When a person downloads Lackey it should ideally take you through:
a) Download your plugin using the pluginfinder
[ b) Download the images ]
c) Load your plugin
d) Deckbuilder
e) Server
f) Play game

Until just now I thought I was going to advocate a compromise but actually, after my list, it would require a completely different path.

--
current zoom/scale/tilt type functions - Being able to show/hide these in GUI sounds sensible to me. AFAIK, only Mark and Erase are likely to be used frequently and the keyboard/mouse method is 90% easier.

--
I didn't spot the Current Plugin info first time round, but it's a "yes please" to me. Being able to change plugin without going to preferences would be awesome; and it's elegant and doesn't intrude on anything else.
--
Chat/log functions: the order is set by the plugin maker; I think that's better for now.
---


That's all my specific comments. My overall comments are this: making any interface is tricky; making it good is time consuming; making it so it suits everybody almost impossible.  So from my point of view, while I think Innuendo raised a lot of points which have been on my mental wishlist, they remain just that: a wishlist.  A couple of those changes are fairly  minor but the rest would require potentially an entire rewrite of the GUI so I won't press for them. Lackey remains an awesome program.

Take a look at the new interface that is live now. I am still going to make additional improvements to the tabs and to the way I draw buttons.

Less is more, so the new version is a better version of the old version. The core things I still don't like about it persist though, but that's another issue.

I do want to continue the discusion of the always visible chat window. I think picks at flies pointed out all the reasons why I think this is one of the most important changes you could make.

Ignore my mockup's scaling. Take your current UI and make the chat always visible. At most based on the number of lines visible in the chat log by default, you are looking at a loss of no more than 10 visible cards in the deck editor pane.

I can't ask more directly than to say that is 100% a good trade. looking at 10 less cards in the deck editor pane does not hurt my ability to make a deck. not seeing the chat window absolutely and positively does.  I'm not even asking for the chat window tabs like I mocked up. Just the ability to view the game log chat from the deck editor tab (or shoot, all tabs, that way I could navigate a new player through the preferences without them having to flip around).

There are so many upsides to an always visible game log I can't begin to list them all. It would fundamentally make lackey a better program to use. I'm honestly willing to sit on all other suggestions if you strongly consider this one idea. It's that important I feel.

Quote from: innuendo on March 09, 2012, 07:51:45 PM
Less is more, so the new version is a better version of the old version. The core things I still don't like about it persist though, but that's another issue.

I do want to continue the discusion of the always visible chat window. I think picks at flies pointed out all the reasons why I think this is one of the most important changes you could make.

Ignore my mockup's scaling. Take your current UI and make the chat always visible. At most based on the number of lines visible in the chat log by default, you are looking at a loss of no more than 10 visible cards in the deck editor pane.

I can't ask more directly than to say that is 100% a good trade. looking at 10 less cards in the deck editor pane does not hurt my ability to make a deck. not seeing the chat window absolutely and positively does.  I'm not even asking for the chat window tabs like I mocked up. Just the ability to view the game log chat from the deck editor tab (or shoot, all tabs, that way I could navigate a new player through the preferences without them having to flip around).

There are so many upsides to an always visible game log I can't begin to list them all. It would fundamentally make lackey a better program to use. I'm honestly willing to sit on all other suggestions if you strongly consider this one idea. It's that important I feel.

What if you want a large chat area in the game window? That would leave unacceptably little space for the deck editor.

It would also leave unnaceptably little room on the playmat.

That's my point. If you make the chat box big its covering up screen regardless of what page it is on. I'm not sure why you value deck editor space so much more highly than game play space? If you think they are both important then you'll realize anyone who expands the chat box will do so with full knowledge they do so at the cost of other screen space.

And either way its besides the point. Seeing the chat is such a different category of usability. To compare it to screen space on a deck pool list that is 30+ items already is not an honest discussion of the value of chat. Let's make it easy...Poll?

It would be good if someone else can discuss in this matter. From my point of view, chat size can be tab independent. That way, for instance, I would hide the chat log as I don't need it when Deck Building. And that may also be Trevor's point. The minority of people or cases I guess that would need a chat bar when deck building.

The number of times you want large chat is fairly small. Occasionally something interesting happens in the main server room but that's about it - and in those circumstances you can increase your chat window.

However, while I maintain that it would be incredibly useful, getting it right is tricky unless Lackey can maintain separate chat sizes for different tabs. On the other hand, if that's possible it would be lovely to move to be able to have chat available in the deck builder - ideally switchable between game and server chat as mentioned before.

It's not just the chat we are talking about. With the suggested design, there would be a lot of unneeded interface elements for various situations.

You don't need player stats for anything but a game window. You don't need to see the card preview image when you are on the server, or editing preferences. Sometimes people DO want a large chat section in the game log, because they want to read the actions of what happened, or whatever reason they may have, which may even be aesthetic. I think the suggested design removes a lot of useful space that other panels would use.
For example, the filters take a lot of space in the deck editor. Even if I redesign the filters, I will still want to utilize that space with something pertinent to the deck editor.

And more generally, I think the current way is more intuitive. When playing a game, you need not think about anything not related to playing a game. WHen building a deck, you need not see any interface for stuff that isn't deck building related. Same goes for server and preferences panels.

People don't typically talk to each other when building a deck. If you really want to, I suggest one of the many free voice chat clients. As it is, you can see if you have received an unseen chat message. Even if you ignore the beep sound, or the actual text-to-sound (such as the "You ready?" voice sound), you can still see the number of unsent messages displayed at the top of the Game tab.
It would be nice to let people have at least the option to chat while using the deck editor panel, but I don't think pros out way the cons. There may be a solution that works well, but I don't think it is one that has been presented to me.

A lot of the ideas mentioned in this thread are ideas I have had before and I eventually decided against them. I am also trying to simplify things. I think the 4-uses-4-panels paradigm is more intuitive than some panels you see all the time and some panels you don't, and it isn't self evident what elements belong in each.
But it always is helpful to rethink old decisions, and I did come up with new design improvements from looking at the ideas.

Trevor, I think we've moved away from the giant redesign to examining individual elements.

To address one of your other comments, I don't think it's necessarily more intuitive to hide the chat when you build a deck. In the world of social media chat is always on. And "Oh yeah, you can use something else" is not so much a defense as a shrug of the shoulders.

I'm curious if you have any statistics behind the "people don't talk when building a deck" (although it's clearly true if there is no facility for it). To be fair, I don't have any either (other than the number of times I've groaned about having to switch between tabs to see chats). It would be interesting to do a poll about whether people would be happy to give up some search space (or to able to toggle) it for chat. However, I notice that polls only capture a small number of people so at the moment that interest gives way to practicality.

If I'm flogging a dead horse I apologise, but I really would like "collapsible chat window in deck editor" to be on the wishlist, even if it's not likely in the near future.

Quote from: Picks-at-Flies on March 14, 2012, 05:18:05 PM
I'm curious if you have any statistics behind the "people don't talk when building a deck"

What I said was "People don't typically talk to each other when building a deck."

Billylee said in the thread, "I prefer not to have chat available at all times, at least on the deck editor."

I'm not saying no one would use the chat. I was saying that the suggestions I had seen did not have the pros outweighing the cons.

I suppose I could make the game chat appear at the bottom of the library, collapsed by default. I suppose that wouldn't really hurt anything.
You think the deck editor chat should only contain chat, or game log messages too, like what cards are played?

If you could do that, that would be awesome. :)

I would say it should be on by default but collapsible if you don't like it, but i have a sneaking (sinking?) feeling you'll disagree :)

Picks makes a great point: The reason no one does it now is because it's not an option!

I can add this when I redo the library /card pool area to make it tabbed.