Community Game: Rules & Mechanics

[aardvark]

Alrighty me lads and lassies. The time is come to start some fun!

That aside, this is here to start throwing ideas out. First we'll figure on the victory condition.
The top choices with a whopping 2 votes are: Documents, Tower Building and Triple Win

I'll put it out right now. Tower building doesn't feel espionagey to me and Triple Win is too complicated to KISS so I propose that we go with the Documents. I think it was a good idea in the first place and we can do quite a bit with that without knowing too much on the fluff.

Once that's done we'll be able to deal with the rest of them.
(I separated them into tiers, 1 has the most votes, so on, so forth)

Tier 1 (4 votes)
Ally
Main Character

Tier 2 (3 votes)
Traps

Tier 3 (2 votes)
Locations
Security
Skills
Spywork
Two Decks

Tier 4 votes (1 vote)
Alarms
Drawbacks
Mud Slinging
Ruse
Snoop
Training
Trust Scale

Tier 5 (0 votes)
Clan Card
Gather Favor
Secret

I figure the top 2 tiers will have to go into the game since they were chosen and then the rest we'll use or cut at our discretion. Don't forget, the top 2 are the only ones that must be in the game, after that it's up to us.

[Ripplez]

iv got some ideas. i dont really know how this is going to work out so until someone clarifies the actual process, ill list some of my thoughts on what could be done here. dont take what im putting down as complete ideas, rather each line should be a subpoint on what we could or couldnt do. and then we can discuss how they mesh as a whole or separately.that way if i put an idea and you only like one concept, we can lift that out and work on jus tthat one

documents count for docu-points when scored. you score them during a specific phase of your turn. im thinking of turns being big and expansive, where the end of a single turn is like the equivalent of three to four turns of m:tg. you normaly keep them facedown but you can get a minor effect by flipping them faceup. you get a better effect if yous core them facedown. however you can also leave traps facedown that do nothing when scored. youd draw cards from two decks and have two hands. one is just full of the documents, traps and suchlike. the other is to support them so that they remain uncaptured until theyr scored this is mostly asymmetric though

for a symmetric game, my idea is to have a state focussed on the player, alert or not. the decks are similar. document type cards are placed facedown in a back row with other cards also placed around to act as traps. when the opponent tries to access our cards, we gain the alert state and can flip our traps and use their effects to reinforce the position and then battle it out there. iv got more, i just need to understand them mentaly first

[sneaselx]

My stream-of-conciousness.

Espionage-getting information from enemy.
Goal: Get documents.
How? Internal spies, infiltration.
Spies... 3-4 selected cards, with a beneficial ability, may supply conditions to get documents. Must be converted to your cause, or   bribed with money. Money is temporary, Ideals may be converted with propaganda. Uses politicking. May place allies as spy cards as "sleeper cells".
Infiltration...
   Action: Each infil round is a trap by opponent, set up before hand. Must complete objectives during action phase. (exmp. Trap=Blade Pendulums. First, tap 2 resources, pass a skill check, and then reveal any card in your hand. Failure to do these will have consequences such as activating an alarm, dealing damage, or discarding cards.) Perhaps opponent can interfere?
   Abstract: Each infil round consists of flipping your target document. Document has stat thresholds that must be met. Owner of document must activate placed traps to boost thresholds, or weaken your character.

Clandestine
How to make opponent not know that you are performing espionage?
-Several actions laid out beforehand and revealed simultaneously?
-Documents require set ups that can allow you to predict what they are before you capture them?

Covert
More straightforward... Enemy knows that espionage is occurring, but not who or where.
-Simplest... Locations with traps, must choose character/ally to enter. Almost a copy of netrunner, though.
-Documents have 1-4 locations. These may be filled with cards in order to protect them, or provide boosts, etc. Infiltrator must choose a location to go through. Unfortunately, needs many cards for a little bit of action.
-Many more... Losing focus...Too much thinking...

Good to read some of...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clandestine_cell_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage

[Ripplez]

"Documents require set ups that can allow you to predict what they are before you capture them?" this is a good system. i was already using it for a similar idea ive got, its just weird seeing it said by someone else

the thing is that the more strictly you try to adhere to espionage the more you whittle away at design space you could use for cards or basicly onyl works with full access to the deck. but then thats the challenge :O anyone can make an idea easy to make

i vote we make skill checks non-random. randomness is in the drawing, lets not have it spread too much further

[aardvark]

Uhm, I take it that you want Documents as the victory condition then? 

[sneaselx]

Tower building doesn't feel espionagey to me and Triple Win is too complicated to KISS so I propose that we go with the Documents.

Just going with the flow. But yeah, it seems the best way to go.

[Ripplez]

anyone else have anything they want to share? we wont bite

[GnKoichi]

Thank you guys for picking a win condition. The Creative Team will start working from there. I hope you guys can get a little more organized. What exactly are you hoping to accomplish next? Clearly defined goals will really help these early steps.

[Ripplez]

i think we should work out what the shape of the game will be

a) will it be symmetric/asymmetric?
b) how closely will it adhere to flavour? like given the four factions right now, will the document holders be one of the factions (enabling  resource generatign cards based on steam, chemical and electircity) or will it be someone hiring them (making it kinda hard to explain why you play resources if your just hiring help)
c) how big a role will hidden information take? its meant to be there but how much are we askign them to guess? card types? strategies? will failing a guess just outright cost you the game? set you back? increase their developmnt?
d) *insert valid obvios point i coudnt think of*

imo once we know wat the game will look liek, then we can actually come up with rules and stuff, borowing ideas and mechanics from the fluff (for example sparkies could cause overdrive : comes into play with 2 counters. remove a counter start of the turn, you have X : Y while youv got the counter). a simple example but just one way we could use the flavour to generate mechanics and rules

[GnKoichi]

IMHO, there's been so much detail work suggested already between the two topics, that it might be time for people to make single-page rules pitches. Something that covers the basic setup, play, and win condition. It should also cover card types and how they are used. It should avoid specific mechanics aside from those necessary to understanding how the game is played. If several people from the Rules team make pitches like this, it will be much easier to see how this will come together. You can pick from those suggestions the rules set that works best, or you can find ways to combine them into something greater.

In my experiencing, spending more time doing detail work in these stages can be tricky, since the task is then figuring out how to make them all work together. It's much easier to go the other way. Create a framework and then go into the details from there.

[Ripplez]

Create a framework and then go into the details from there.

this is what i just said. we should decide on what the game would look like and how the design would be. then we can move to inserting rules and mechanics. theres no point inserting core rules on using facedown cards if facedown cards wont even be an issue for the most part

my suggestion -

a)make it symmetric. that way we can -

i)avoid faling into netrunner cliches
ii)have the possibility of subtle interactions between cards played for spying and those used for defending; it might make the game more complex. for example, an ally played to help the main character collect information on the players last turn might be able to be dismissd and sent back to base, to help you perform an aditional action to mount a defense (say represented by having split boxes for whether theyr attacking or defending a raid). this isnt possible if only one side defends or attacks

against :

i)*might lead to a broken game. by needing resources to pay for both aspects of the game, both being importnt, you mightnt have enough resources to play both, leaving yourself open. if we try to fix this by lowering the costs, that just means that its that much easier for people to just focus on the cheaper side and just spam all their resources on that. if its offense, an overwhelming rush. if defense, an overwhelming wall. itd make the edge sharper, needing you to have a strong starting to get any sort of advantage against such play, making it more vulnerable to bad opening hands. thats my first interepretaton at least. can be fixed by not using the same resources throughout (mana + actions), having a different managerial resource (shared hand of cards leading to a finite number of cards you can play until you just run of things to do), having higher costs but a boost to mana (start with two lands in play) or a combination of these

b)id like to stick abit closely to flavour but not cutting off the option to disregard it for gameplay. not that we should just throw it aside but rather, as a latter resort if we cant balance things with a theme that makes any sense. again, i think it should be done after weve truly considered all balanced and fun alternatives till we go against flavour

c)i would like hidden information to play some role but not an arbitrary one. to ask a player to guess : okay here is a card. figure it out from this card list of 50 cards : is just.... yeah. in my opinion, either we do it akin to netrunner and ask them to guess between a smaller pool of types (types of ice for example), theyll have enough work trying to guess the opponent attacking strategy and general cards in their hand. asking them to guess out of a huge card pool would be unfair. we could also ask them to guess a card that they already know of. for example, if documents + traps are a deck in themselves, we could have it faceup and visible to the opponent wat is being drawn. then they know what the options are but they have to make sure theyr inferring the right card from your actions. its just an example to highlight how it could be approached in a nonnethack way

d) documents themselves could be interpreted in a few ways. for example, documents could be pages from a  manual and the players are trying to steal each others secrets. in this way, documents could open up options : maybe as token generators? effect givers? for example - outline 52-J : you may now play Automaton cards from your hand. If you do so, discard a card. this however removes the hiddden information aspect. Or maybe the fact that they can be hidden could be used as a soft counter? flip up and gain effect or leave hidden and have them protection by their secrecy? this way, stealing documents would give the attacker a boost too. care might need to be taken, if the document is strong enough to be based completely around, then the opponent might be crippled if the 1 document is taken... this might not be a bad thing, forcing you to have to tank when playing with the more power manuals. or the power level could be low, nothing wrong with that either

another form might simply be each document gives you docu-points, maybe they start the game already in play? certain effects could work at a given level of docu-points, maybe written on the main character or in the defense building aspect

another another method mght be to have documents relate to actions you could take. kind of like the manuals idea but tied more into the gameplay. for example - pay 3 : draw a card - or - once per turn you may look at a face down card - or things along those lines. this lets the games really flow more to the players specific tastes but also has a huge effect of snowballing into a slipper slope of death, where the loss of a key ability means an eventual loss later on. a way to combat that might be to have lower key, optional effects like - pay 4 : draw a card - that are optional and more of a fallback position. but it would be hard to make the effects worth their inclusion while not making them too powerful

these are some ideas for the framework of the game. hope we can decide on what to put down for the main outline of the game, then we can work on the good parts

[TheBuck]

Ok folks I've been racking my brain with the Docs thing and this is how I see it.

The game itself should be X amount of life so chars are playable and it's the chars job to get these Docs as an alt win con, so I think the chars should be low powered and have the total life be at say 100 and have the alt win con at say 5-7 docs. The ways the docs are gotten is a prob right now, I am just drawing a blank. Traps should also be a key focus as well, and they should be used to stop people from getting the docs.

I will continue to think of things but I'm going to need feedback for not only the members of the team but the players of lackey as well so we can make a hell of a game.

On a side note I have not been any to log into lackey since Dec. I have reinstall the progy a few times and nada. When I try and log in it just idles and frezzes on me.

[GnKoichi]

Ripplez, the difference between the suggestions you are making and my idea of moving on to full-game pitches is a matter of concreteness. There's been a lot of discussion and suggestions. At this point, a full game pitch (which, like I said, would basically be a full set of basic rules) would be a good way to move forward. If two or three people make a one-page, complete rules pitch, then we could have some more productive discussions. I'm trying to keep the steam moving here while aardvark is disconnected.

[Ripplez]

what is the outline for the pitch?

[GnKoichi]

A good outline would be

Overview: (one line description)

Card Types: (bare details for each card type)

Deck Construction: (rules & restrictions)

Setup: (if necessary)

Turn Structure: (outline)

Win Conditions: (full description)

The whole thing should not take up more than a single page in Word.